From my research, I've seen people say that the white wire on the ds2 module receives power from somewhere, I'd say something in the start circuit, and it applies it to actually delay ignition timing, seems that if I can probe this wire at crank to see what kind of signal it sends or receives, I should know if it is working? And that wire I'm assuming would feed to the ignition coil itself. I am learning this as I go, so all help or experience is appreciated!

 

Looks like the white wire makes its was over to the starter relay and plugs onto the "I" terminal, so I'll definitely chase that down as well and make sure it's working properly, or if it's even existent at this point.

i don't remember seeing much bolted onto that solenoid, just starting cables, ignition switch and a heavy 10 gauge yellow wire....

 

You are 4 steps ahead of where you need to be yet again.

Remember ONE THING AT A TIME.

Replace the distributor adapter. Forget about anything else till you do that.

Do not worry about base timing.
Do not worry about changing the timing.
Do not worry about the DSII module.
Do not worry about the DSII wiring.

You have one goal and one goal only currently Replacing the distributor adapter and testing after wards. That is it.

Before you even start to think about the DSII module you have other steps to do first before you even look at it or consider it.

And just as an FYI NO DSII module retarded the timing for start, except for a very select few and they had additional wiring (third plug) to accomplish this.

Again ONE THING AT A TIME.

Let not turn this in to a repeat of the start circuit diagnostics.

 

Until you get that play squared away with some new parts, you should be okay to center the cap relative to the adapter and continue troubleshooting. The actual timing is controlled by the position of the pickup coil relative to the distributor shaft. The cap just controls which cylinder receives the spark. There's already a lot of wiggle room with where the rotor is pointing relative to the 8 fixed posts. I'd imagine as long as the cap/adapter play is centered, it would just as good as if precisely locked by an index tab.

 

It would be no different that having the distributor lose and moving, that amount of play would be like 5° of timing. Moving the cap is still going to advance/retard the timing. At 14° base ignition timing the engine is already at the ragged edge of base timing advance. Throw in a few more degrees and boom timing hard start. And the issues is it is moving during operation. So until this is fixed no other diagnosis can properly be done.

With the DSII dwell is fixed and the wide rotor tip helps prevents spark scatter at higher RPM.The spark starts at the leading edge of the rotor and dist terminal and continues to fire as the rotor moves past the distributor terminal. Large diameter cap , means rotor tip speeds are higher, so the farther the rotor will move during the spark event as the spark event is fixed at X milliseconds long as dwell is fixed in DSII systems..
This is also why the DSII system almost never experiences cross fire even when pretty wet.

This needs to be replaced before anything else can be done. Or you are just pissing in the wind.

The Operation of the Vac advance and mech advance could be verified in the interim. But that's it.

 

I hate to harsh your buzz, but don't go popping those champagne corks yet. Sounds like you may be on to something, or you may have found a misleading clue. As the others have wisely said, "One step at a time." Don't make me break out the FTE tranquilizer gun.

It's a possibility that disabling the ignition merely masked the starter system operating below requirements. It obviously decreased the effort required by the starter, so it must be a good fix, right? Well, set the ignition timing to factory specs and proceed from there.

Please keep the following hypothetical scenario in the back of your mind:

Let's say the kind and unfairly maligned engineers carefully did their research years ago. They determined 1000 oomphs (a totally imaginary unit of power measurement) are required to spin those 460 cubic inches of raw American power. That's under the worst case of a hot engine, with higher compression than cold. Now, good engineers that they were, they designed some reserve into the starter system. That's the battery, starter, starter relay, and all cables. Instead of just giving you the bare minimum of the 1000 oomphs required, they planned for a healthy reserve of (strictly guessing) 30%, or 1300 oomphs.

As long as the starter system delivers more than the 1000 oomphs required, the engine spins up just fine and quickly starts. This extra reserve allows for a good start even if the battery is less than fully charged. It allows for the starter's output to slowly decrease as it ages. It even allows for a battery cable connection that is less than perfect, and so on. As long as the number of oomphs available exceeds what is required, the starter speed is good for a normal start. Sounds super obvious when you think about it that way.

Now suppose your starter system still has some undiagnosed fault reducing the output. After so much troubleshooting, the only likely fault remaining in the starter system is the starter itself. Let's say it has some defect so it only puts out 80% of the oomphs it should. That drops the output of the starter system down to 1040. However, that's still more than the 1000 required, so the starter speed is normal.

Think back to our previous troubleshooting. Much of the testing was done with a battery that had been on a charger all night. That probably helped squeeze out all 1040 precious oomphs. Drive for a little bit, though, and the battery charge likely came off that fully charged peak. At your next problem start, your battery charge may be down just enough so the starter system output drops to something like 950, slightly below that magic 1000 oomph threshold. Nothing wrong with the battery, it's operating within its 30% margin, but now the starter drags.

Meanwhile, a pipe-smoking squirrel in a tweed jacket comes along, engages you politely, and asks you to chase him. Oh that bushy tail is so cute! While being chased, he yells some interesting tidbits about ignition timing and its effect on starter system performance. With you so enraptured, the squirrel perches on your shoulder and gives directions as you disable the ignition and the starter system performs perfectly. Reconnect it and the starter drags. You can repeat this all day long. Eureka! You've found it! How could it possibly be anything else? Drinks all around!

Now I'll gladly put back a few shots on your tab, but you've got to step back and consider all possibilities. What if your ignition timing was perfectly within specs? When disabled, this made the engine easier to spin. That 1000 oomph threshold so wisely determined by our hallowed engineers? It might drop to 800 with the ignition disabled. Meanwhile, the potentially compromised starter system that could only put out 950 oomphs? Well, that's greater than 800, so the starter roars at breakneck speed.

Does this make any sense? The ignition timing could very well be the root cause, so adjust that as necessary to factory specs. Ignore any other advice (at least for now) to run with increased timing advance for better performance, as that will increase the starting effort required. Furthermore, you should not have to retard the timing beyond factory specs, as a properly functioning starter system should have enough reserve capacity to overcome normal resistance. But if the problems persist with ignition timing at factory specs, it's time to reconsider my long-winded Tale of the Oomphs and look at other possible faults.

 

I see the conversation is back to timing.

I read a timing article several years ago and it convinced me to give manifold vacuum a try on the 460 and I’ve been running it ever since. It sounds crazy but with “Base” timing at about 12* + maybe another *15 vacuum I must be around 27* advanced at idle. Throttle tip in is nice and crisp which is handy for getting a load moving off the line and the vacuum advance fades right out under heavy throttle so no pinging. Later on at highway cruise the vacuum advance is all in again for better fuel economy (especially when combined with EGR IMO).

Anyway, when I start it up warm I can watch the idle speed slowly increase over 4 or 5 seconds as the vacuum advance comes on through the V-rest (vacuum restrictor orifice which buffers the vacuum signal). I suppose the V-rest delaying the vacuum advance at start up is a nice feature.

And speaking of timing retard at start up, there’s several different ways to wire the Duraspark ignition retard and full battery voltage to the coil circuits at start up. Here’s a few examples from the archive.

Note: if you have a 460 with factory in tank fuel pumps, the fuel pumps get initial power from the I terminal on the starter relay. As far as I know the I terminal is not tied into the ignitions system on later models... but I don’t see why it couldn’t in a pinch.

The first diagram is a later model version with a nice view of your wiggly adapter and IMO they’re all a little sloppy. Just make sure you’ve got both spring clips that hold the adapter to the base snapped into place, the back one can be a tough one sometimes! Shouldn’t be too much trouble to unplug the two wire Duraspark connector from the module and verify power signals to the module from the vehicle with the key in the run and start positions. Wouldn’t it be something if the wires were somehow crossed.

 

Again the Dura Spark II DOES NOT RETARD TIMING the 12V to the box and coil at start is just to give the the spark an extra kick during crank. Ford even did this on points ignition systems.

The ONLY Duraspark II that had a retard function were boxes with 3 plugs (such as below) It not only retarded the timing but also adjusted the dwell.

 

With all due respect, these guys covered the topic and the retard function be real.

Duraspark II Ignition Retard -Fallacy or Fiction - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum

 

 

Again it does not retard the timing, it adjusts the dwell to take advantage of the 12V to the coil. NOT the actual spark timing.

It is a long standing myth that the 2 connector DSII Module can adjust spark timing during crank. In some boxes it adjusts the dwell during crank, but NOT the timing . The box still triggers at exactly the same time from inputs from the hall affect sensor in the distributor that is NOT changed.

Really think about this, why would Ford design a whole new DSII box with added circuitry for adjusting the spark timing and add third connector if they already had that functionality in the base DS II box ? Also since it is only utilized during crank it leaves it available for use during engine run.
So why design a new box ?. I'll tell why, cause it does not adjust the timing.

Furthermore NO engine in the Dura Spark II era required retarded ignition timing for starting, ALL the engines were low compression 8.3:1 or lower and had low base timing for emissions, there was ZERO need or reason to retard the ignition timing during start.


The three connector boxes can actually retard the timing by lagging the signal to the coil in comparison to the inputs from the distributors hall effect sensor with out affecting dwell. This was done for a couple reasons altitude compensation and emissions in certain operational conditions.

 

 

Ya I get what you are saying but issue is most people mistake a change in dwell as a change in timing. Funny all these people state it retards the timing yet NOT ONE can tell you what the amount that the retard is...

Hope fully the new adapter fixes your slow crank.

 

 

Here's a search result from RockAuto. With your DuraSpark ignition, you'd need the non-EEC version:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...+adapter,10738

It's tough to say if your local parts store will have one. The part typically doesn't wear out, so there's not a huge demand for them, unlike normal tune-up parts.