Sorry the starter isn’t sorted out yet.

If I recall correctly at one point you were experimenting with timing / ignition and it seemed to turn over just fine when you disconnected the coil and disabled the ignition.

Going back to that for a second I wonder if it’s possible for your mechanical or vacuum advance mechanisms to hang up. If the distributor advance got stuck in an advanced position every once in a while, that could cause starter kick back... every once in a while.

To lube the mechanical advance remove the cap and rotor. There should be a felt puck inside the distributor shaft. Pull it out and put a couple drops of oil down the hole. Replace the puck and the rotor and twist the rotor back against the advance springs a few times to work it in. Should work smooth and snap right back.

As for the vacuum advance the pick up plate rotates around the shaft, and without a little lube on that bearing it can get stiff and sticky over time. Also check to be sure the little snap ring that holds the vacuum advance arm on the pick up plate is in place. Otherwise the arm could pop off and leave the pick up plate in an advanced position. Or maybe the vacuum advance can is screwy, or it’s somehow holding vacuum.

Anyway, doesn’t cost anything to check it over.

 

Thanks for the idea, I can definitely check it out and give it a couple drops of oil and check to see if it's getting bound up. It had this problem with the old distributor as well as this one.

 

Is there any reasoning along the lines of removing this new starter, replacing it with an original motorcraft unit, and replace the fenderwell solenoid with a motorcraft one? Basically return it to stock oem?

ive had problems with the fenderwell solenoid before, lots. Now it's a "jumper" to the solenoid on the starter. Wondering if there's something up with that whole get up. perhaps someone who's done this conversion can chime in. It is essentially a mini torque starter swap using ford factory parts.

 

So, here's a simple question, since before my 3 year run with replacing solenoids every week, I don't ever remember having this problem. Why was I welding up starter solenoids? Could I have a drop in voltage from the ignition switch that is intermittent?

 

I guess what I'm getting at here, is I had a problem with solenoids, so I replaced it with a few hundred Chineses one, then had a bad battery, upgraded a few times over the last 10 years, and had a low crank problem, so I eventually moved up to a 1000cca battery. Still had the problem intermittently so I went with a mini torque starter and now have the problem less and less, but not fixing the underlying problem. A 550cca battery should start this engine with a direct drive starter, maybe that's why my problem is less frequent than it was, by applying more voltage and starting power, but at the same time, the problem still is there. By downgrading my starter, solenoid, and battery back to factory replacements, maybe my problem will become worse, which will open up the opportunity to diagnose better?

 

Okay, it may be time to take one of the most difficult steps when troubleshooting: Discarding everything one thinks has been proven, and going back to square one. It's human nature, we hate doing this. But at over 100 posts with no resolution nailed down yet, it's time.

A few random thoughts, in no particular order:

1) Chinese parts: Pour some coffee and read this thread. The OP kept burning up solenoids, yet everything tested fine, including my beloved voltage drop test. The fix was to finally spring for a genuine Motorcraft starter relay. Keep in mind this was a stock configuration, where the fender-mounted relay handled all the starter current, but the tale is a good indictment of the suspect quality of Chinese parts:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...solenoids.html


2) Your non-stock hi-torque starter: It should be more better than the stock unit. Maybe it would be if genuine Motorcraft. See the previous paragraph about suspect Chinese parts.

3) Your non-stock wiring to the non-stock starter: Please draw a quick sketch showing the arrangement of:

• A) The fender-mounted relay
• B) The big terminals on either side of the relay
• C) The smaller wires attached to the relay (to the big terminals and smaller studs)
• D) The cable from the relay to the hi-torque starter
• E) The small wire that energizes the solenoid on the hi-torque starter. This small wire is labeled "Switched 12V signal to energize solenoid" in the following picture.

I have an idea how you've wired everything, but want to make sure. Here's a pic of what the electrical end of your starter may look like, please confirm:





4) When you did the voltage drop test of the cables, where did you attach the meter at the starter? I think we already discussed this, but I need the meter connected to the heavy braided wire that feeds into the starter body. This location is very important to test the solenoid on the starter, in addition to the cable.

5) Your reluctance to throw some parts at the problem. You can only test so much. At some point, you've ruled out certain culprits. In theory, you can dig deeper and deeper, and hire a scientist with a clipboard and labcoat to test the remaining suspect parts in a laboratory setting. Then you'd be sure, for goodness sake, dagnabit! I'm not sure what scientists are charging per hour these days, but I bet they have a minimum charge that would far exceed what a genuine Motorcraft starter and fender relay would set you back.

 

One more thought over dinner:

6) How repeatable is the problem when it occurs? Does it happen once and goes away? Or when it acts up, does it happen several times in a row?

If the latter, rig up a temporary kill switch for the ignition. I think a wire into the cab from the coil (-) terminal will work. Connect this wire to a switch, with the other terminal connected to ground. Next time the starter acts up, abort the start attempt and flip on the kill switch to take the ignition out of the equation. Then turn the key to start and see if the cranking speed returns to normal. Obviously the truck won't start with the ignition disabled, but the resultant starter speed would provide a huge clue if the ignition timing is part of the equation.

 

It is wired exactly as you described, that's why I named the fender mounted solenoid a jumper, and I tested the starter at the lug directly on the starter.

I don't want to seem like a tight a$$, but I also want to find the culprit. I'm willing to return completely to stock and begin from square 1 to do this. Also, by doing this I may be able to find the problem, I just wanted to introduce another pile of what ifs to the equation. I'm just wondering if the problem would become more pronounced if using the smaller battery, factory solenoid, and direct drive starter.

I just feel feel like I'm getting results, but that is handicapped by the fact that I put larger voltage components in place of quality parts.
If everyone agrees, and evidence definitely points to, I'll replace everything with motorcraft parts hopefully under exchange, and start again.

 

Have you checked your ground cables? Make sure they have clean connections and good lugs/clamps on them.

 

Found this picture on the internet showing how my pmgr starter is installed. It's much better than I can do with a crayon.

 

If you are looking for a hi torq starter made in the USA look here.
RobbMc Performance Products - RobbMc Mini-Starters
I have 2 of his starters and customer service is top notch from what I hear as I have not needed to use it.


As for wiring that type of starter go to the bottom of this page
RobbMc Performance Products - AMC Starter
and look for
RobbMc Gen II Ministarter Installation Instructions and Troubleshooting Guide


Dave ----

 

Yes that is what I was trying to show in my post.
The large cable gets put on the large stud on the starter and it is moved from the solenoid out put side to the same side the batt cable is on (in put side).


You then run a 10 ga. wire from the solenoid out put side (where the large cable was) down to the starters small stud and you are all set.


My drag car RobbMc starter is wired that way and works great.
Dave ----

 

So your recommending replacing the starter with a higher quality unit, not reverting to the old setup?

 

Not how I would wire this also not how Ford wired solenoid type starters. You end up with extra wire and low amp draw through the Ford starter relay there is no gaurentte you are going to get a clean contact through the relay with that low amp draw.


The best way to do these types of starters if your keeping the Ford mounted started relay is as such. This is the way Ford did them and for a reason...

 

Matthew,

Why do we need this jumper?