Cummins swap/frame question
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,697
Likes: 3
From: Marengo, Iowa
I built my ow. I modified the Gen 1 mounts, but would recommend a different way. They are a lot like gas mounts, but the weight of the motor made them slide downwards. I kept the angled mounting position that was on the Dodge, but is apparently steeper on the Ford. If I were to do it again, I would either use something like a bushing from a rear car suspension (The 2nd Gen Dodge mounts are like this) or make a small pedestal that holds the mounts horizontal. It isn't any too hard to fab the mount to the block. The limiting factor for me was that the power steering pump and vacuum pump are mounted in line and the power steering pump barely clears the bracket. The higher output versions also use the mounting styles I mentioned.
This is something I mocked up in a CAD program;
Driver side mount behind the power steering pump:
Passenger side mount:
This is something I mocked up in a CAD program;
Driver side mount behind the power steering pump:
Passenger side mount:
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Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
Interesting. I have a Gen 1 engine. The vacuum pump is different from later years, but I have the other style and it is a direct fit swap. Just have to see which style fits a little better. Only going to be running the brake booster anyways.
Are those mounted to the original mount towers in the ford chassis? What engine was originally in there?
I was planning to fab my own mounting system, and that CAD drawing happens to be very similar to what I was thinking. I may not have the use of a CAD program, but I have engineered many things in the past. Sometimes, I draw it out on paper, sometimes I just grab some pieces of scrap metal to give me a general design idea. Just depends on the situation.
That PS pump was something I was a bit concerned about, in regards to engine mount clearance.
How much modifying did the NV4500 require, both in terms of a crossmember, and the cab floor? Since I don't one handy, it's kinda hard to "picture" in my head what it would take. I have a general idea what what it would take to use a ZF5, since Ford thoughtfully installed a metric ton of them in these style trucks...... Of course, either will likely require me to fab a custom tunnel cover plate, since the 6BT has to be set back about 2".
Are those mounted to the original mount towers in the ford chassis? What engine was originally in there?
I was planning to fab my own mounting system, and that CAD drawing happens to be very similar to what I was thinking. I may not have the use of a CAD program, but I have engineered many things in the past. Sometimes, I draw it out on paper, sometimes I just grab some pieces of scrap metal to give me a general design idea. Just depends on the situation.
That PS pump was something I was a bit concerned about, in regards to engine mount clearance.
How much modifying did the NV4500 require, both in terms of a crossmember, and the cab floor? Since I don't one handy, it's kinda hard to "picture" in my head what it would take. I have a general idea what what it would take to use a ZF5, since Ford thoughtfully installed a metric ton of them in these style trucks...... Of course, either will likely require me to fab a custom tunnel cover plate, since the 6BT has to be set back about 2".
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,697
Likes: 3
From: Marengo, Iowa
You also need to tap in to the vacuum to run your heater doors. Otherwise it will always be on defrost, unless the early trucks use cables.
The motor was originally a 460, but I got some diesel plates to put in, as the motor mounts on the Cummins happen to hit pretty much right over the diesel mount holes. You could potentially make a mount using regular Ford mounts as well.
The trans didn't require much actually, I just made a transition-offset bracket to go from the trans mount, which was a little ahead of the crossmember to the Ford mount over the crossmember. I made use of holes that were already in the frame.
Left side of the frame. You can see the original location by the rust on the top of the frame.
The trans cover wasn't too bad, just relocated the hole farther back and welded a cover in on the front part, then mounted a junk holder to cover the hole in the floor mat up.
The motor was originally a 460, but I got some diesel plates to put in, as the motor mounts on the Cummins happen to hit pretty much right over the diesel mount holes. You could potentially make a mount using regular Ford mounts as well.
The trans didn't require much actually, I just made a transition-offset bracket to go from the trans mount, which was a little ahead of the crossmember to the Ford mount over the crossmember. I made use of holes that were already in the frame.
Left side of the frame. You can see the original location by the rust on the top of the frame.
The trans cover wasn't too bad, just relocated the hole farther back and welded a cover in on the front part, then mounted a junk holder to cover the hole in the floor mat up.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 1
From: Missouri
The diesel plates are probably better. I have the 300-6 mounts, and while they appear to hold the engine at the same angles and everything, it puts it at least an inch or two higher. Meaning the engine will be angled back... but then engine crossmember is not the same on an gasser. You will be able to bolt up one and weld the other on (due to the hole on the drivers side where the oil filter sits?).
and @Rogue_Wulff, if you aren't using the PS pump you can get vacuum pumps without.
and @Rogue_Wulff, if you aren't using the PS pump you can get vacuum pumps without.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
No need for vacuum to run the HVAC, since it has the non-A/C heater (cable operated), and dealer installed air. These made it a bit more involved to change the heater core, yesterday.
I've got a 300 in there now, and didn't expect those plates to work. I can make new ones if diesel plates are too hard to locate.
looks like either the NV4500 or ZF would be pretty easy to mount. Since it's a 2wd auto, there is no current hole in the tunnel, or carpet.
Switchfoot, I will be using the PS pump.
I'd think the 300 plates would push the cummins engine higher (due to being wider) and try to offset it to the pass side, due to how the driver side plate is made. The pass side plate hugs the crossmember, while the driver side stands well away from it.
It's nothing a metal brake, plasma cutter, and welder can't cure...... Already planned to fill in the "oil filter hole" in the crossmember. The 300 doesn't need it, and neither will the cummins.
I've got a 300 in there now, and didn't expect those plates to work. I can make new ones if diesel plates are too hard to locate.
looks like either the NV4500 or ZF would be pretty easy to mount. Since it's a 2wd auto, there is no current hole in the tunnel, or carpet.
Switchfoot, I will be using the PS pump.
I'd think the 300 plates would push the cummins engine higher (due to being wider) and try to offset it to the pass side, due to how the driver side plate is made. The pass side plate hugs the crossmember, while the driver side stands well away from it.
It's nothing a metal brake, plasma cutter, and welder can't cure...... Already planned to fill in the "oil filter hole" in the crossmember. The 300 doesn't need it, and neither will the cummins.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 57,027
Likes: 2,762
From: Virginia
Options for the vacuum pump;
1. Run a hydroboost brake booster from a f350 superduty. It uses hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump to boost the brakes, that will eliminate the need for vacuum and give a nice boost in brake performance.
2. Run a electric vacuum pump. Some early 80's and a few other small cars ran these pumps, and I believe some of the powerstrokes run electric vacuum pumps. You can do a google search and bring up some more info on these.
1. Run a hydroboost brake booster from a f350 superduty. It uses hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump to boost the brakes, that will eliminate the need for vacuum and give a nice boost in brake performance.
2. Run a electric vacuum pump. Some early 80's and a few other small cars ran these pumps, and I believe some of the powerstrokes run electric vacuum pumps. You can do a google search and bring up some more info on these.
Tuned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 8
A lot of newer GM trucks also use electric vacuum pumps. My dad got one out of a junk yard for his drag car since his big cam didn't supply enough vacuum for his brakes
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Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
I would not want to trust an electric vacuum pump for brakes. The newer powerstrokes use one to handle the auto locking hubs (4wd) and HVAC controls.
The Cummins uses a gear driven vacuum pump, with the PS pump attached to the back of it. Not sure it could be deleted easily. The engine has the older diaphram style vacuum pump, but I have a later rotary style set aside at the shop.
I have considered hydroboost as an option, if it comes down to it.
The Cummins uses a gear driven vacuum pump, with the PS pump attached to the back of it. Not sure it could be deleted easily. The engine has the older diaphram style vacuum pump, but I have a later rotary style set aside at the shop.
I have considered hydroboost as an option, if it comes down to it.
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,697
Likes: 3
From: Marengo, Iowa
I happen to have a couple diesels I need to pull apart, two are manuals... Since you aren't in a rush for the parts, I may just get around to getting them torn down by the time you need the pieces.
Also, I don't believe the hole is there in the 6 cylinder frames, as it isn't needed to since the block is well away from the frame. I have a 6 cylinder frame from an 85, and seems to me the hole is not there.
Also, I don't believe the hole is there in the 6 cylinder frames, as it isn't needed to since the block is well away from the frame. I have a 6 cylinder frame from an 85, and seems to me the hole is not there.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
My 96 runs a mechanical vacuum pump for brakes and there are no problems. Most of the Dodges that I have seen do use hydro boost for the power brakes. Ford used it on some of their trucks. I doubt they have on 1/2 tons but F 250 and up they did.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
I happen to have a couple diesels I need to pull apart, two are manuals... Since you aren't in a rush for the parts, I may just get around to getting them torn down by the time you need the pieces.
Also, I don't believe the hole is there in the 6 cylinder frames, as it isn't needed to since the block is well away from the frame. I have a 6 cylinder frame from an 85, and seems to me the hole is not there.
Also, I don't believe the hole is there in the 6 cylinder frames, as it isn't needed to since the block is well away from the frame. I have a 6 cylinder frame from an 85, and seems to me the hole is not there.
What all parts are you not going to be needing? I'd like to have a good idea what I can mark down on the list as "pending"...... The list is always growing, as I think of more stuff.
There is a hole in my crossmember, but it's mostly hidden by the engine mounting plate. Have to really be looking to see it. You are correct about it not being needed though. The oil filter sits well behind the engine mount.......
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 1
From: Missouri
I finally found the pictures I was looking for, they may or may not help you, but it shows part of what I was talking about with the crossmember. He welded in some metal before being able to put the old IDI diesel plate on. Even with an I6 you should have the big hole under the old plates. The difference being the i6 perches are wider to go over the hole entirely. The passenger side is a direct bolt-in. (but you will see comments later on in that thread saying that all the welding was overkill...)
Bronco Diesel Swap
Bronco Diesel Swap
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 57,027
Likes: 2,762
From: Virginia
From what I gather, they started using the hydroboost on the f450 trucks around 88 or 89. I miss-spoke in the previous post, f350's didn't get it. These are the trucks with the 10 lug rims. I am not sure if and when they started using it on the later trucks and what size trucks it could be found on. It all got mixed up around 1999 when the Superduties came out.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,967
Likes: 7
From: Eccles, WV
Rouge Wolfe, as a past insurance adjuster, Ford and the Big 4 carriers were in quite a battle. At and during that time Ford Truck Owners were paying a hell of a surcharge because of the frame. You could wreck the truck, doing $7K of damage only replacing the bumper and frame. Ford came up with the waffle frame. It was designed to come apart underneath the cowl, cutting about $2.5K off the repair cost. It had to be TIG Welded, mig would not work.
I stated the above just for this comment.
Would I put a high horse engine on this frame, Maybe.
Would I put a high torque low RPM engine on this frame NO!
It is your call and money at what you want to do.
I stated the above just for this comment.
Would I put a high horse engine on this frame, Maybe.
Would I put a high torque low RPM engine on this frame NO!
It is your call and money at what you want to do.