2011 fuel system issues
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 3
From: Other side of the sunrise
A system, costing 10-12 K, which can fail from simply being one who is unfortunate enough to blindly fuel up at a vendor who somehow got water in their fuel, which may and may not be easily provable, sounds kind of like a time bomb to me. This does happen. Just the fact that the consequence of this misfortune is over 10 freaking thousand dollars scares the heck out of me when I consider updating to this truck. Kinda makes me want to go back to finding an old SD with a 7.3, and just eat an engine/trans rebuild to make it good as new, vise buying a new truck.
I am hopeful that these fuel system incidents are so rare that they are unmentionable, but it seems that is still remaining to be seen, in time. I just can't get past the 12 grand for water in fuel...
I am hopeful that these fuel system incidents are so rare that they are unmentionable, but it seems that is still remaining to be seen, in time. I just can't get past the 12 grand for water in fuel...
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Lexus...
This document was developed by multiple big players in the diesel engine market. This was published more than 8 months before the introduction of the 6.7 Ford diesel to the public.
It is impossible that Ford and Bosch did not have a discussion regarding HPFP lifespan. Ford can not control the quality standards of the US fuel supply. They certainly could control the quality of the HPFP they chose to install on their next diesel engine. The terms of warranty issues regarding the Bosch HPFP was one part of the negotiations prior to green lighting the Bosch pump for the new engine. The world was watching because of the huge lawsuit between Ford and Navistar. Bosch is a huge company and knows the warranty ropes. They have made sure that Ford will not break their bank when failures occur.
Ford took the risk and went with the Bosch CP 4.2 pump. While it has not had rampant failure yet, the CP4.2 pump has shown that Bosch's concerns about lubricity and quality were warranted. The WIF light is a red herring. It is Ford's way of keeping the peace with Bosch. Ford is willing to sacrifice some owners on the alter of warranty denial to keep the real story under wraps.
I have decided that I can not stand idly on the side and let others be treated the same way as I was treated. I sold a bunch of these trucks for Ford...I am now on the other side. Until Ford fixes the HPFP, Bosch's own specifications say that a purchaser is rolling the dice on HPFP lifespan. I will continue to tell those that ask about the potential problem and help those that have been burned by Ford...and anyone of us could be next
Shame on Ford
Regards
This document was developed by multiple big players in the diesel engine market. This was published more than 8 months before the introduction of the 6.7 Ford diesel to the public.
It is impossible that Ford and Bosch did not have a discussion regarding HPFP lifespan. Ford can not control the quality standards of the US fuel supply. They certainly could control the quality of the HPFP they chose to install on their next diesel engine. The terms of warranty issues regarding the Bosch HPFP was one part of the negotiations prior to green lighting the Bosch pump for the new engine. The world was watching because of the huge lawsuit between Ford and Navistar. Bosch is a huge company and knows the warranty ropes. They have made sure that Ford will not break their bank when failures occur.
Ford took the risk and went with the Bosch CP 4.2 pump. While it has not had rampant failure yet, the CP4.2 pump has shown that Bosch's concerns about lubricity and quality were warranted. The WIF light is a red herring. It is Ford's way of keeping the peace with Bosch. Ford is willing to sacrifice some owners on the alter of warranty denial to keep the real story under wraps.
I have decided that I can not stand idly on the side and let others be treated the same way as I was treated. I sold a bunch of these trucks for Ford...I am now on the other side. Until Ford fixes the HPFP, Bosch's own specifications say that a purchaser is rolling the dice on HPFP lifespan. I will continue to tell those that ask about the potential problem and help those that have been burned by Ford...and anyone of us could be next
Shame on Ford
Regards
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline...22003bosch.pdf
I find the whole situation with Ford engineering and calculated risk of said failures completely unacceptable, as well as how they handled your HPFP failure that was no fault of your own. Therefore, I vote with my dollars, and have to believe only a fool would buy a Ford truck with a 6.7, as their actions towards you speak louder than any words or "warranty" that supposedly came with the truck.
Shame on Ford. And shame on their feigned ignorance... it had to have been cold and calculated, after 10 years of common knowledge on the internet.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 852
Likes: 12
From: Kentucky
A system, costing 10-12 K, which can fail from simply being one who is unfortunate enough to blindly fuel up at a vendor who somehow got water in their fuel, which may and may not be easily provable, sounds kind of like a time bomb to me. This does happen. Just the fact that the consequence of this misfortune is over 10 freaking thousand dollars scares the heck out of me when I consider updating to this truck. Kinda makes me want to go back to finding an old SD with a 7.3, and just eat an engine/trans rebuild to make it good as new, vise buying a new truck.
I am hopeful that these fuel system incidents are so rare that they are unmentionable, but it seems that is still remaining to be seen, in time. I just can't get past the 12 grand for water in fuel...
I am hopeful that these fuel system incidents are so rare that they are unmentionable, but it seems that is still remaining to be seen, in time. I just can't get past the 12 grand for water in fuel...
Your stating that water in fuel is the problem here for the pump which is not the case. Even Rickatic (correct me if I'm wrong Ricatic) says the problem is lubricity. I think we all agree here (again correct me if I'm wrong) that if water gets sucked into the pump then failure is highly possible. This has been the case since diesel has begun. Now saying that, the amount of water needed to cause failure has changed since the early days. I have no sympathy for anybody that has a failure due to water, because the simple fact is no diesel is made to run on water! Now if your pump fails because of a manufacturing defect then that is a different animal. Your statement is way off OLFORDNSTONE. It might be a timebomb if you get water, but you lit the fuse for the bomb.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 852
Likes: 12
From: Kentucky
Lexus...
I just provide the numbers...with the help of a few others that have had some experience with the Bosch CP4.xx series of HPFP.
You ask if I believe the Bosch CP4.2 series HPFP is junk. I do not remember saying the pump was junk...I might have early in the game. The pump seems to be able to handle it's job when supplied fuel within Bosch's stated and published quality standards, in particular, the lubricity. One can twist whatever I write in any direction they choose but the facts are in my favor. The document posted by Ninerbike, dated September 2009, clearly states the industries position on the lack of lubricity in the US fuel supply. This document was developed by multiple big players in the diesel engine market. This was published more than 8 months before the introduction of the 6.7 Ford diesel to the public.
It is impossible that Ford and Bosch did not have a discussion regarding HPFP lifespan. Ford can not control the quality standards of the US fuel supply. They certainly could control the quality of the HPFP they chose to install on their next diesel engine. The terms of warranty issues regarding the Bosch HPFP was one part of the negotiations prior to green lighting the Bosch pump for the new engine. The world was watching because of the huge lawsuit between Ford and Navistar. Bosch is a huge company and knows the warranty ropes. They have made sure that Ford will not break their bank when failures occur.
Ford took the risk and went with the Bosch CP 4.2 pump. While it has not had rampant failure yet, the CP4.2 pump has shown that Bosch's concerns about lubricity and quality were warranted. The WIF light is a red herring. It is Ford's way of keeping the peace with Bosch. Ford is willing to sacrifice some owners on the alter of warranty denial to keep the real story under wraps.
I have decided that I can not stand idly on the side and let others be treated the same way as I was treated. I sold a bunch of these trucks for Ford...I am now on the other side. Until Ford fixes the HPFP, Bosch's own specifications say that a purchaser is rolling the dice on HPFP lifespan. I will continue to tell those that ask about the potential problem and help those that have been burned by Ford...and anyone of us could be next
Shame on Ford
Regards
I just provide the numbers...with the help of a few others that have had some experience with the Bosch CP4.xx series of HPFP.
You ask if I believe the Bosch CP4.2 series HPFP is junk. I do not remember saying the pump was junk...I might have early in the game. The pump seems to be able to handle it's job when supplied fuel within Bosch's stated and published quality standards, in particular, the lubricity. One can twist whatever I write in any direction they choose but the facts are in my favor. The document posted by Ninerbike, dated September 2009, clearly states the industries position on the lack of lubricity in the US fuel supply. This document was developed by multiple big players in the diesel engine market. This was published more than 8 months before the introduction of the 6.7 Ford diesel to the public.
It is impossible that Ford and Bosch did not have a discussion regarding HPFP lifespan. Ford can not control the quality standards of the US fuel supply. They certainly could control the quality of the HPFP they chose to install on their next diesel engine. The terms of warranty issues regarding the Bosch HPFP was one part of the negotiations prior to green lighting the Bosch pump for the new engine. The world was watching because of the huge lawsuit between Ford and Navistar. Bosch is a huge company and knows the warranty ropes. They have made sure that Ford will not break their bank when failures occur.
Ford took the risk and went with the Bosch CP 4.2 pump. While it has not had rampant failure yet, the CP4.2 pump has shown that Bosch's concerns about lubricity and quality were warranted. The WIF light is a red herring. It is Ford's way of keeping the peace with Bosch. Ford is willing to sacrifice some owners on the alter of warranty denial to keep the real story under wraps.
I have decided that I can not stand idly on the side and let others be treated the same way as I was treated. I sold a bunch of these trucks for Ford...I am now on the other side. Until Ford fixes the HPFP, Bosch's own specifications say that a purchaser is rolling the dice on HPFP lifespan. I will continue to tell those that ask about the potential problem and help those that have been burned by Ford...and anyone of us could be next
Shame on Ford
Regards
But I still don't think you are getting what I'm asking..... What if your pump was just a unlucky bad pump? Just like somebody having a washer fluid motor go out aafter 10,000miles because of a mfg. defect. What if the truck and the motor are great and the only problem with your situation is that you just went to a bad dealer and recieved a raw deal from whoever (dealer, Ford)
To me it looks like you are calling the truck no good and steering people away for the bad fuel pump alone. You keep stating that Bosch did not design a pump that could handle the US fuel. Well, what if you filled up with a bad batch of Diesel? Possibly mixed with Kerosene or gas or just bad diesel. So the already poor US fuel that everyone around is using and making it just fine, was worsened enough in your batch that it casued the HPFP to fail?
In reality what you say on here will not hurt Ford's record for the best selling truck. We have plans for another 6.7 cab chassis soon. And I know several others in my line of work that are gearing up for big purchases of the 6.7.
So I have two questions...
1. Did you ever have your diesel in the tank tested for lubricity or other material in it?
2. Why do you think that with other mfg. running this Bosch pump (similar) that we do not have a mass problem of failures? Water in fuel aside.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 852
Likes: 12
From: Kentucky
Rick, to be fair and unbiased.... Ford has had the opportunity to know about fuel lubricity issues and the manufacturer's position on wear scar factors and lubricity requirements since 2002, 10 whole years, when all the manufacturers of HPFP's were already stating the need for a new standard for diesel fuel for their diesel injection systems.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline...22003bosch.pdf
I find the whole situation with Ford engineering and calculated risk of said failures completely unacceptable, as well as how they handled your HPFP failure that was no fault of your own. Therefore, I vote with my dollars, and have to believe only a fool would buy a Ford truck with a 6.7, as their actions towards you speak louder than any words or "warranty" that supposedly came with the truck.
Shame on Ford. And shame on their feigned ignorance... it had to have been cold and calculated, after 10 years of common knowledge on the internet.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline...22003bosch.pdf
I find the whole situation with Ford engineering and calculated risk of said failures completely unacceptable, as well as how they handled your HPFP failure that was no fault of your own. Therefore, I vote with my dollars, and have to believe only a fool would buy a Ford truck with a 6.7, as their actions towards you speak louder than any words or "warranty" that supposedly came with the truck.
Shame on Ford. And shame on their feigned ignorance... it had to have been cold and calculated, after 10 years of common knowledge on the internet.
Companies with fleets in the 300-1000 vehicle range selected the 6.7 for a replacement. I'm sure a fool did not make that decision......
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 266
Likes: 1
From: Sunshine Coast, BC
Reason I asked is that it seems like you pushed yourself out the door back in the early days of your transformation ...
Originally Posted by rickatic
10/18/2011
The name of this fine site says it all, Ford Truck Enthusiasts. I was once one. The problem is that I am no longer able to call myself one of you. The only enthusiasm I can generate is negative commentary. Like my good friend Shane said, I was becoming a 1%er. I realized then, that my days here were done. With nothing positive to add to discussions, it is time to move on.
The name of this fine site says it all, Ford Truck Enthusiasts. I was once one. The problem is that I am no longer able to call myself one of you. The only enthusiasm I can generate is negative commentary. Like my good friend Shane said, I was becoming a 1%er. I realized then, that my days here were done. With nothing positive to add to discussions, it is time to move on.
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,345
Likes: 0
The pump seems to be able to handle it's job when supplied fuel within Bosch's stated and published quality standards, in particular, the lubricity. The document posted by Ninerbike, dated September 2009, clearly states the industries position on the lack of lubricity in the US fuel supply. This document was developed by multiple big players in the diesel engine market. This was published more than 8 months before the introduction of the 6.7 Ford diesel to the public.
Shame on Ford
Regards
Shame on Ford
Regards
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,345
Likes: 0
Your stating that water in fuel is the problem here for the pump which is not the case. Even Rickatic (correct me if I'm wrong Ricatic) says the problem is lubricity. I think we all agree here (again correct me if I'm wrong) that if water gets sucked into the pump then failure is highly possible. This has been the case since diesel has begun. Now saying that, the amount of water needed to cause failure has changed since the early days. I have no sympathy for anybody that has a failure due to water, because the simple fact is no diesel is made to run on water! Now if your pump fails because of a manufacturing defect then that is a different animal. Your statement is way off OLFORDNSTONE. It might be a timebomb if you get water, but you lit the fuse for the bomb.
If water gets into their injectors THE FORD WATER SPERATOR FAILED! THERE IS NO EXCUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 852
Likes: 12
From: Kentucky
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 305
Likes: 1
From: Colorado
Perhaps we need regulation prohibiting the addition of emusifiers to diesel fuel by suppliers and station operators. I think some station operators add this to "dry" out their tanks. It seems to me that it would be useful to us if we could get the lubricity standard of US fuel raised to that of Europe. Maybe we could find a sympathetic ear in Congress to sponsor such a bill? Whining about it to each other won't accomplish much unless we are spurred into action and get the standard improved.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,201
Likes: 4
From: waynesville, mo.
Perhaps we need regulation prohibiting the addition of emusifiers to diesel fuel by suppliers and station operators. I think some station operators add this to "dry" out their tanks. It seems to me that it would be useful to us if we could get the lubricity standard of US fuel raised to that of Europe. Maybe we could find a sympathetic ear in Congress to sponsor such a bill? Whining about it to each other won't accomplish much unless we are spurred into action and get the standard improved.
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,844
Likes: 6
From: Albuquerque
Rick, I was not trying to quote you on the pumps being junk. I was just making an assumption based on your pervious statements.
But I still don't think you are getting what I'm asking..... What if your pump was just a unlucky bad pump? Just like somebody having a washer fluid motor go out aafter 10,000miles because of a mfg. defect. What if the truck and the motor are great and the only problem with your situation is that you just went to a bad dealer and recieved a raw deal from whoever (dealer, Ford)
To me it looks like you are calling the truck no good and steering people away for the bad fuel pump alone. You keep stating that Bosch did not design a pump that could handle the US fuel. Well, what if you filled up with a bad batch of Diesel? Possibly mixed with Kerosene or gas or just bad diesel. So the already poor US fuel that everyone around is using and making it just fine, was worsened enough in your batch that it casued the HPFP to fail?
In reality what you say on here will not hurt Ford's record for the best selling truck. We have plans for another 6.7 cab chassis soon. And I know several others in my line of work that are gearing up for big purchases of the 6.7.
So I have two questions...
1. Did you ever have your diesel in the tank tested for lubricity or other material in it?
2. Why do you think that with other mfg. running this Bosch pump (similar) that we do not have a mass problem of failures? Water in fuel aside.
But I still don't think you are getting what I'm asking..... What if your pump was just a unlucky bad pump? Just like somebody having a washer fluid motor go out aafter 10,000miles because of a mfg. defect. What if the truck and the motor are great and the only problem with your situation is that you just went to a bad dealer and recieved a raw deal from whoever (dealer, Ford)
To me it looks like you are calling the truck no good and steering people away for the bad fuel pump alone. You keep stating that Bosch did not design a pump that could handle the US fuel. Well, what if you filled up with a bad batch of Diesel? Possibly mixed with Kerosene or gas or just bad diesel. So the already poor US fuel that everyone around is using and making it just fine, was worsened enough in your batch that it casued the HPFP to fail?
In reality what you say on here will not hurt Ford's record for the best selling truck. We have plans for another 6.7 cab chassis soon. And I know several others in my line of work that are gearing up for big purchases of the 6.7.
So I have two questions...
1. Did you ever have your diesel in the tank tested for lubricity or other material in it?
2. Why do you think that with other mfg. running this Bosch pump (similar) that we do not have a mass problem of failures? Water in fuel aside.
lexustbs --- In all honesty...Lets hear your answers to your own questions. How would you feel??? I'm curious...
So...please do tell...you know all of his situation...so give us all some insight.
I'll speculate here...but sounds like you would have just handed over 10k...and trucked on...with a void warranty repair. Yes?
biz
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 305
Likes: 1
From: Colorado
Good suggestion, but unfortunately, never gonna happen. You would have to monitor each station, each distribution area 24 hours a day. emulsifiers (alcohol) will create interesting damage, with no rust. The quality of fuel nationwide is still varied greatly even though standardization came about.
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,345
Likes: 0
The resivoir shold be larger and have enough head room over the sensor to give warning. I do not believe for a second that emulsified water can not be removed. Ford failed to build a truck that can survive under normal conditions in the USA
Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 852
Likes: 12
From: Kentucky
lexustbs --- In all honesty...Lets hear your answers to your own questions. How would you feel??? I'm curious...
So...please do tell...you know all of his situation...so give us all some insight.
I'll speculate here...but sounds like you would have just handed over 10k...and trucked on...with a void warranty repair. Yes?
biz
So...please do tell...you know all of his situation...so give us all some insight.
I'll speculate here...but sounds like you would have just handed over 10k...and trucked on...with a void warranty repair. Yes?
biz
Yes, our fuel is tested that we buy in the bulk tank. If I or any other truck is out on the road and needs fuel, then we are at the mercy of the station.
2. Why do you think that with other mfg. running this Bosch pump (similar) that we do not have a mass problem of failures? Water in fuel aside.
because there are no problems if a person buys quality American fuel that meets the requirements. Which the majority of people here can attest to. No failures.
If my truck had this problem I would first use a dealer that knows how to work on a diesel. Then if they want to deny my warranty I would want to know the reason. If its water in fuel, then tough luck for me. If it is bad fuel (which i would want a sample tested) then it would still be on my plate. If the pump just failed because of a manufacturing defect then they should pay.