Emergency help needed!
Tuned
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: Luxemburg WI
I'm praying for you folks. I know the stress of being broke down 1500 miles from home as of this June. My roadside repair in the rainstorm has turned out to be the kids fondest memory of the trip. I hope your husbands walk turns out the same.
I'm frustrated just reading this. I can only imagine what you're going through. Have faith. Things will be ok. The lord will provide. He already got you a farmer nice enough to let you "camp". This could have happened in a few days in that desert, but you are safer where you are.
Now if we can get the "mechanic" to do his job.... He'll never get you going again until he closes the da*n manual and opens his toolbox!
I'm frustrated just reading this. I can only imagine what you're going through. Have faith. Things will be ok. The lord will provide. He already got you a farmer nice enough to let you "camp". This could have happened in a few days in that desert, but you are safer where you are.
Now if we can get the "mechanic" to do his job.... He'll never get you going again until he closes the da*n manual and opens his toolbox!
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
I like to carry around an internet connection so I have access to FTE. A scanner can come in handy too.
Take a deep breath and relax. You've done well so far asking questions both here and from the dealer.
Since the Ford tech is doing the work, let's try a different approach. The same one you used when discussing the GPR. Instead of offering suggestions on what he needs to check, let's help him think about the injector issue.
Some back ground info. The HEUI system uses engine oil to fire the injectors from the HPOP (high pressure oil pump). A leaking o-ring or bad injector could conceivably bleed off enough pressure to cause a no start, but typically it takes several bad o-rings or bad injectors to bleed off that much pressure. The HPOP can produce 3,000 psi while cranking and you only need 500 psi to start. #2 injector is the front injector on the driver side, and just so happens to sit under the ICP (injection control pressure) sensor. The IPR is what increases the oil pressure as you're cranking, but we'll get to that after we rule out the injector.
The 7.3 will start and run on only 4 cylinders. The IDM (injector driver module) tells the injectors when to fire, and if the IDM detects a bad injector soleniod it will shut down the entire bank. When one half of the engine is shut down, the truck will still start, and you can even drive it across town if you have to. It will shake and miss so bad you'll think the mirrors will fall off, but it will start up and run.
Now with a little understanding, the conversation you need to have with the Ford tech is, why do you think the Injector caused the stall and causes the no start? Then ask him how one bad injector could cause the no start.
Is it hydro-locked? ( injector broke and dumped so much fuel in the cylinder that the motor will not spin when you turn the key)
Did it burn a hole in the piston from dumping excessive fuel? (the answer is no since it would still start but we want him to think about that)
The electrical soleniod is bad? Remind him the truck should start even with the 9 pin connector on the driver side bank unplugged.
Could it be blown o-rings on the #2 injector bleeding off oil pressure causing the no start? Then ask him if he monitored ICP & IPR while cranking.
Then if you get a chance ask him what codes he pulled so we have some more info. I'd suggest you have your kids and some candy bars nearby. Tell them whoever makes the most noise when you hold a candy bar up in the air gets to eat it before lunch. Once you get as much info as you can from him, hold a candy bar above your head and let the kids start screaming and tell the tech you have to go and you'll call him back.
And Brother Les was thinking about cylinders #3 & #8, and those false readings are related to the new CPS that Ford installs during the recall.
Take a deep breath and relax. You've done well so far asking questions both here and from the dealer.
Since the Ford tech is doing the work, let's try a different approach. The same one you used when discussing the GPR. Instead of offering suggestions on what he needs to check, let's help him think about the injector issue.
Some back ground info. The HEUI system uses engine oil to fire the injectors from the HPOP (high pressure oil pump). A leaking o-ring or bad injector could conceivably bleed off enough pressure to cause a no start, but typically it takes several bad o-rings or bad injectors to bleed off that much pressure. The HPOP can produce 3,000 psi while cranking and you only need 500 psi to start. #2 injector is the front injector on the driver side, and just so happens to sit under the ICP (injection control pressure) sensor. The IPR is what increases the oil pressure as you're cranking, but we'll get to that after we rule out the injector.
The 7.3 will start and run on only 4 cylinders. The IDM (injector driver module) tells the injectors when to fire, and if the IDM detects a bad injector soleniod it will shut down the entire bank. When one half of the engine is shut down, the truck will still start, and you can even drive it across town if you have to. It will shake and miss so bad you'll think the mirrors will fall off, but it will start up and run.
Now with a little understanding, the conversation you need to have with the Ford tech is, why do you think the Injector caused the stall and causes the no start? Then ask him how one bad injector could cause the no start.
Is it hydro-locked? ( injector broke and dumped so much fuel in the cylinder that the motor will not spin when you turn the key)
Did it burn a hole in the piston from dumping excessive fuel? (the answer is no since it would still start but we want him to think about that)
The electrical soleniod is bad? Remind him the truck should start even with the 9 pin connector on the driver side bank unplugged.
Could it be blown o-rings on the #2 injector bleeding off oil pressure causing the no start? Then ask him if he monitored ICP & IPR while cranking.
Then if you get a chance ask him what codes he pulled so we have some more info. I'd suggest you have your kids and some candy bars nearby. Tell them whoever makes the most noise when you hold a candy bar up in the air gets to eat it before lunch. Once you get as much info as you can from him, hold a candy bar above your head and let the kids start screaming and tell the tech you have to go and you'll call him back.
And Brother Les was thinking about cylinders #3 & #8, and those false readings are related to the new CPS that Ford installs during the recall.
That's interesting, about the #2 and the ICP being right above it. I'm going to give this post some more thought and get back to you. Great questions you gave me to ask him.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,966
Likes: 50
From: Texas
ICP sensor circled in red.
The ICP sensor actually screws into the oil rail. At the very top of the picture, you can see a line with the plastic wrap on it that also threads into the oil rail. That is the HPO (high pressure oil) line from the HPOP. That of course means the oil from the HPOP comes into this rail behind the #2 cylinder so it splits directions and goes forward towards #2 and rearwards towards the other cylinders. Makes a #2 issue less likely when you look at it that way.
Anyway, as I said, ICP sensor is right above #2 so ask him what ICP psi is while cranking.
If he starts stammering or just making things up, ask him if he blocked off each head and tested high pressure oil while cranking (that's actually in the Ford manual).
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,455
Likes: 8
From: Williams Lake B.C.
A couple of pages back you said the oil was OK so you supposed the oil in the HPOP res was also Ok because it was a open system.
.
My 02 wouldnt start and the dealer was going to put on a new HPOP and whatever else they could in it at a cost of $2500 , I towed it home instead.
I came here and got some advice.
I checked the HPOP tank and it was down approx 1/2 cup oil and the truck wouldnt start.
I topped up the HPOP res and the truck started up and ran fine.
The engine oil was fine.
Ivve got a big long thread somewhere with lots of great info about problems like yours.
Do a search of my user name it was a thread with a title with something about "buying a Dodge " in it.
Ill try and find a link but check that HPOP oil.
.
My 02 wouldnt start and the dealer was going to put on a new HPOP and whatever else they could in it at a cost of $2500 , I towed it home instead.
I came here and got some advice.
I checked the HPOP tank and it was down approx 1/2 cup oil and the truck wouldnt start.
I topped up the HPOP res and the truck started up and ran fine.
The engine oil was fine.
Ivve got a big long thread somewhere with lots of great info about problems like yours.
Do a search of my user name it was a thread with a title with something about "buying a Dodge " in it.
Ill try and find a link but check that HPOP oil.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,455
Likes: 8
From: Williams Lake B.C.
Found it.
Its a long read , but lots of good info in it.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...-for-sale.html
Its a long read , but lots of good info in it.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/7...-for-sale.html
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,399
Likes: 188
From: Norco,CA
Pansen, I just ran accross a old tread with cowboy mark that had the same trouble you do. The dealer said the same thing as your is. Clay are sponsor went threw it with him he replaced the IPR senser let it run at idle for 30 minutes and all is well. He said it is still running today, Try it before you spend all that money on injectors etc. Chet
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,340
Likes: 2
If they did block off one side and it came up sounds like they narrowed down the problem. They are not really giving you the whole story.
If you click on the ford doctor link in my signature you can download the hpop guide that gives you more troubleshooting.
Junior User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: Mililani
Pansen,
Sorry about your luck with that dealership, hopefully it works out for you. By the sounds of it, it would be cheaper to hire Clay and fly him to you with a box full of potential parts and his scanner! I would also have them, or you, replace the two sensors mentioned on the last page, just in case, cheap eliminations. Best of luck,
Matthew
Sorry about your luck with that dealership, hopefully it works out for you. By the sounds of it, it would be cheaper to hire Clay and fly him to you with a box full of potential parts and his scanner! I would also have them, or you, replace the two sensors mentioned on the last page, just in case, cheap eliminations. Best of luck,
Matthew
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
I'm still suspicious of IPR. Excellent approach suggested by Chris!!!!
It sounds like you guys are on the road as much as I am! I like to think of myself like a ship at sea. I always have emergency supplies on board and enough TOOLS to self-rescue in all but the most serious situations.
As for scantool - I carry AE, but looking forward to the Aeroforce Interceptor ScanGauge that can also do buzz test, CCT, etc - but displays engine parameters on a gauge (no PC required). I also have the same manual your Ford tech is using, but its not working on my new computer yet.... or I could post the procedures he is (or should be) doing. This manual takes up most of (3) DVD's and uses VM-ware to run on your computer.
I also carry (2) small tool bags with wrenches, screwdrivers and some extra sockets, extensions, swivels, etc along with a good socket set. Takes up very little room, but I have stuff specific for my PSD's. I have changed a water pump 'on the side of the road' as well as a few starters, alternators, batteries, belts, calipers/brakes, etc - and even injectors at camp once. For the injectors, I rented a car for a week (and had to put GAS in the darn thing! my trucks burn WVO...
) and bought BRAND NEW upgraded injectors (AC codes) for less than dealer woulda charged to replace (4) stockers. I probably could have bought the tools I needed too!
Cargo Master
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,298
Likes: 94
From: Delta, CO
Pansen this really sucks. Sounds like they pretty much made up their mind & are going to replace that injector come hell or high water. The thing I see is now your asking great ?'s that are really exposing the lack of knowledge. With your situation maybe the best for your family is to let Goober go ahead with their plan of attack & get home. Make sure to keep all the parts they replace (for future use more than likely still good). Then quickly dispute the charges if any are suspect. My thinking is they are really going to dig them heels in & the great suggestions your making are flying right out the window. Seen this same type of deal on guy that needed fuel line r&r on one head, towed to Ford. When they R&R line got dirt in head guy ends up with bill 4 injectors & bunch of other stuff $2800, week in motel/rent car etc. before they figured out THEIR MISTAKE. I know ya'll would just like to get home & your over a barrel, prayers sent GOOD LUCK, CJ
