I was just sitting here pondering this discussion and a thought occurred to me. How hard would it be for a prosecutor today to get a convition on God for criminal conduct? I mean look at the evidence in the bible:

Murder- every first born child in Egypt; the entire inhabitants of Sodom and Gamorrah; Jobe's wife, children and servants; the entire population of the earth (the flood).

Arson - The burning bush; again Sodom and Gamorrah;

Destruction of public property - The walls of Jerico; The flood;

Criminal Mischief - The tower of babel.

Rape - The virgin birth (could the maiden really give consent? Was she of age?)

Just things that make me go Hmmmmmmmm.

 

>Do you believe in God? Do you believe in creation versus
>evolution? Do you believe in the Bible as written, or is it
>just a good book about how to behave and be decent?
>
>The thing that brings this up is all the fighting between
>religious groups and also, all the evil that happens to so
>many good people everyday.
>
>If God is all seeing, all knowing, and has a plan for
>everyone, why don't we just sit back and wait for it? Why do
>we go out and seek revenge for things that have happenned?
>Religious types will tell you that God has his reasons for
>allowing something terrible to happen, and that it fits into
>His plan, but if something good happens, it's a miracle!
>
>That being the case, would you think God to be somewhat of a
>pr!ck for allowing children to be abused, molested, and
>killed?
>
>How about for allowing 9/11 to happen?
>
>How about the sniper in the DC area?
>
>Are these truly the actions of a merciful and caring God?
>
>What do you think? Do you believe? Did you believe once, but
>not anymore? Have you ever believed? Why? Why not?


First of all, I'm glad you understand that God ALLOWED things like 9/11 to happen. Too many people blame Him for actually doing it, and that's stupid. It's our own fault that things like 9/11 happen. Posts like this, showing that some people still don't believe in God demostrates the very reason why bad things happen in our world.

And I'd like to remind everyone...the New Testament clearly says that creation itself is PROOF that God is real and is who He says He is. No one has any excuse to not believe, the Bible says. All you have to do is look outside and there He is.

Sure, we live in a free country...so we can believe what we want. Does that change the rules though?? Does that decide what applies to us?? NO! If some man says, "I don't believe in the force of gravity. It's just something some scientist made up", does this mean that gravity doesn't apply to his life then? NO! He can believe what he wants, but if he jumps off a roof, he will still hit the ground and splat like a bug. The same is true with God's message to us. You, as an American, are free to believe whatever you want. But remember, God is still real and the rules still apply to you. If you die, you WILL face judgement like all the rest of us, regardless of what you believe.

Isn't it just easier then to go to church and listen to the truth??

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-Oct-02 AT 12:33 PM (EST)]>>>Brienobrien, ForDen and others:
>
>>I guess we'll see......
>
>>Pompous, assuming, and most intolerant. I have no view of
>>Christianity in which I JUDGE any Christian as either right
>>or wrong. So you condem me from heaven eh? Yes, the choice
>>is mine, so I don't think I want to be in your heaven sir!
>>Thanks anyway. I will find my own way.
>>:-)
>
>ForDen & Brienobrien:
>
>I'm not judging you. I've never said that your sin is
>greater than mine and therefore unforgivable by a perfect
>and loving God. I'm stating what the Bible says and what I
>beleive. Jesus never preached tolerance. In fact he was
>very intolerant of sin (but not sinners) and of the current
>form of religion defined by the Pharisees and Sadducees.
>
>As a child, I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sin and to
>enter my heart. That was the beginning of my personal
>relationship with the King of kings, the Mesiah and my Lord
>and Savior.
>
>John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord we do not know where You
>are going, how do we know the way?"
>John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth,
>and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
>2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and
>profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for
>training in righteousness.
>
>If your statement is correct, "I will find my own way", then
>John 14:5-6 is false and you have successfully disproved the
>entire premise of Christianity, that Jesus Christ was the
>one and only way to Heaven as the perfect sacrifice for our
>sins. If John 14:5-6 is false, then 2 Timothy 3:16 is also
>false as John 14:5-6 is part of the scriptures and a false
>verse couldn't be inspired by God. If we can prove that 3
>verses are false, then using logic and deductive reasoning
>it shouldn't be diffcult to prove that the entire Bible is
>false as it all leads to Christ as the Mesiah and Redeemer
>of Isreal and the entire human race.
>
>As I stated in my first post on this topic, no one was ever
>convinced into Heaven. You are apparently not convinced. I
>would no more trust "your own way" to get me into Heaven
>than you should trust my way.
>
>Thanks anyway, but I'll follow God's way as stated in the
>Bible.

I don't ask you to trust my way to your heaven. I believe it will work for me and get me where I want to be eternally. I don't need your book to tell me how to live. I have an internal compass called a soul and free will that knows right from wrong and I use it. That is my roadmap. It is a gift to man, and whether he chooses to use it or not, is what is important. I still want to know the following:
According to all of these organized religions there are many, many souls going to hell.

If that is the truth then according to Boyle's Law, hell is expanding due to the expansion of heat. If this is true, then all hell is about to break loose, and I want to get the hell out of the way.

However, if all hell is'nt about to break loose, then hell must be shrinking due to less souls enetering, again according to Boyle's Law. So if this is true, I am going back to college and find that beautiful woman who said she would screw me when all hell freezes over!

Either way, I guess I should be packing my bags.

And yes, your are judging me, and alot of other people in your posts, and in your religion. You are not even aware of it.

 

I agreen with brian,
Anyone who says "If you don't believe what's in the book then you ain't gwien up to hebbin" is passing judgement on the majority of the earth's population.

This same person would probably tell you that the Book of Mormon doesn't hold the same authority as the bible.
Why?

Did the people who wrote this not have the ability to relay god's word?

At what point in time did we lose our ability to converse with God?

If people still do (Pope, bishops, or medicine men) then who decides if they are real prophets or lunitics?

Why don't you get out of the Us vs Them mentality. If heaven is going to be populated with a bunch of arrogant, self rightous, bigomist, than why would anyone want to go there.
I think that you are using your religion to justify your prejudices. If you dehumanize all the people who don't believe as you do than it is easy to cast them aside.
While you would probably say that you wouldn't, you have already stated that your god is waiting for the oppertunity to cast us all to the depths of hell upon our deaths.

Finally, the bible says we should not recognize or pray to any god other than GOD. Well, as you have all stated before, we as humans are not equiped to comprehend the god you speak of, therefore there is a good chance that any god you choose to accept will be the wrong one.

Unless you are one of those lucky people who can does talk to god- then you are set.

 

So you are saying that if four different people have four different views, ALL those views are correct??

What in the world is wrong with you? Didn't you go to school? Ever have a math or science class? There is right, and there is wrong. There is truth, and the rest is false. Period. That's just how this world works. So you can't say the Mormons are correct, and the Christians are correct, and the Atheists are correct too. It's not just about what someone chooses to believe. It's about what is true, and what's just opinion.

God made you. That's right, He did. And therefore you belong to Him. You might not like it, but that's how it is. He created the oxygen that you suck into your lungs as you read this. He gave you life, and now you are saying "I don't need you God." You are awfully arrogant to think that you can just make it through life and find your way to Heaven on your own. Boy, I honestly feel bad for you man...you've got a seriously rude awakening coming up one day.

I know you hate to have people preach at you...but guess what, we all do. I didn't like it anymore than you do. No one likes to be told they are wrong. But the fact is, sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. When you were a kid, did your Dad ever punish you for doing something wrong? Did you get mad at him for that? You probably did...but now you know he was just doing the right thing, and you couldn't see that at the time. See what I mean?

God doesn't DO bad things to us. All the negativety and sin in the world, that is what causes bad things to happen to us. We stupid humans BLAME it on God, when in reality He is the only thing still holding us together. SHAME ON US. If it wasn't for God's hand on the U.S., we'd have been destroyed long ago, because one thing is for sure...our liberal minds are tearing us apart from the inside out.

Man, no one who "preaches" at you hates you. And they aren't trying to offend you. They are trying to help you. Why can't you see that??

 

>So you are saying that if four different people have four
>different views, ALL those views are correct??
>
>What in the world is wrong with you? Didn't you go to
>school? Ever have a math or science class? There is right,
>and there is wrong. There is truth, and the rest is false.
>Period. That's just how this world works. So you can't say
>the Mormons are correct, and the Christians are correct, and
>the Atheists are correct too. It's not just about what
>someone chooses to believe. It's about what is true, and
>what's just opinion.

You are so enlightened so as to know the real truth eh? Wow. You must be some important Swammi or something. Tell me more about how the world works, oh GREAT ONE!

>
>God made you. That's right, He did. And therefore you
>belong to Him. You might not like it, but that's how it is.
> He created the oxygen that you suck into your lungs as you
>read this. He gave you life, and now you are saying "I
>don't need you God." You are awfully arrogant to think that
>you can just make it through life and find your way to
>Heaven on your own. Boy, I honestly feel bad for you
>man...you've got a seriously rude awakening coming up one
>day.
>

Who are you to say "I don't need God" How do you know what I need?
Quite the opposite with regard to arrogance. Look in the mirror pal.
Don't feel bad for me, don't waste your time. I am closer to your so called rude awakening than you think. I'm not scared at all.


>I know you hate to have people preach at you...but guess
>what, we all do. I didn't like it anymore than you do. No
>one likes to be told they are wrong. But the fact is,
>sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. When you
>were a kid, did your Dad ever punish you for doing something
>wrong? Did you get mad at him for that? You probably
>did...but now you know he was just doing the right thing,
>and you couldn't see that at the time. See what I mean?
>
>NO. This is Theological philosophy son, not your Dad teaching right from wrong, which he may have been right or wrong about!
>
>Man, no one who "preaches" at you hates you. And they
>aren't trying to offend you. They are trying to help you.
>Why can't you see that??

Who says God is a "HE". So you think salvation is a one way street owned by any one religion. Man what kind of stuff are you smokin? Are you so arrogant to think that there is only one way to find afterlife?:-X23 I guess so according to your post.

So tell me one thing, please. Where the hell do all of what you call the "non believers" go? If you say hell, I will bust a gut laughing
And I will surely leave to find some thermal shelter because all hell is about to break loose. (See Boyle's Law) Boy your heaven must be a lonely place!

 

OK, forget what I think then.

Let's talk about what Jesus said. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I guess that pretty much sums it up, huh? (Oh, before you blast away, remember, don't point your anger at me, I didn't speak that, God did. So you may want to be cautious before you blast away in anger.)

And about Boyle's Law, which you keep bringing up.... God designed and created the universe, this planet, and all the "laws" that we humans have decided govern it. So you for to try and "box God in" or confine Him by the very things He himself created is quite ignorant, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry man, God said it, that makes it the truth. Don't ask ME why, I'm just a human like you. At least I'm wise enough to know that God cares about me and is TRYING to show me the way. Hopefully, you won't let pride get in your way and you'll "see the light" one day too. Take care man...

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-Nov-02 AT 12:11 PM (EST)]>What in the world is wrong with you? Didn't you go to school? Ever >have a math or science class? There is right, and there is wrong. >There is truth, and the rest is false. Period. That's just how this >world works. So you can't say the Mormons are correct, and the >Christians are correct, and the Atheists are correct too. It's not >just about what someone chooses to believe. It's about what is true, >and what's just opinion.

Actually I have a BS in Chemistry and work as a scientist, and for you to say that there is right and wrong, truth and the rest is false is absolutly rediculous.
Science is bassically a best guess based on our observations, it is never so black and white as you indicate. That is why they are constantly coming out with new science books, things that we thought we understood are actually more complicated than we thought. For instance, when I went to highschool scientist taught that protons, electrons, and neutrons were the smallest atomic particles, now scientist say that there are numerous sub-atomic particles- neutrinos, quarks etc. So science is not right vs wrong.

Besides you are talking about philosophy or theology when you discuss religion, therefore the rules of science wouldn't necessarily apply anyway.
I went to a liberal arts college, and studied philosophy extensively in my last two years, and the on thing that I did learn is that nobody has it completely "right".
If you have figured out what is "truth" than I need you to come speak to the philosophy professors at my school, we spent hour upon hour talking about just that subject and never once was there a consensus.

by the way a consensus is gennerally how scientists determine the "true" value of things. For instance if the National Institue for Standards and Technology is going to issue a product to be used as a standard measure, they first send a sample of the product to numerous sites and labs where it is tested and the results returned to the NTSB. Then, using statistics, an average value is obtained, this value always has attached to it a Standard Deviation. This is the average difference from the "True" value (as determined by the group average) for each of the participants. In other words- nobody is right, everybody is off by some factor.
If this is too much for you to think about feel free to take a statistics or science class at your local CC.

What you need to remeber is that your religion is based on a book, written by men, whose own thoughts, experiences, and interpretations played a big part in how they told their story. Also, since we as humans cannot comprehend or understand God, these men had to attach their own meaning to any interaction they may have had with god.
In other words eveyone of the writers was biased by there own thoughts and preconceptions.

And what really burns me up is that you call other arogant while you ascert that your religion is True while others are mearly opinion. What makes you think that your opinion is more valid than a Mormon, or Taoist, or Buddist

PS
Mormons are christians

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-Nov-02 AT 12:21 PM (EST)]>OK, forget what I think then.
>
>Let's talk about what Jesus said. "I am the way, the truth,
>and the life. No one comes to the Father except through
>me." I guess that pretty much sums it up, huh? (Oh, before
>you blast away, remember, don't point your anger at me, I
>didn't speak that, God did. So you may want to be cautious
>before you blast away in anger.)
>
>And about Boyle's Law, which you keep bringing up.... God
>designed and created the universe, this planet, and all the
>"laws" that we humans have decided govern it. So you for to
>try and "box God in" or confine Him by the very things He
>himself created is quite ignorant, wouldn't you agree?
>
>
>Sorry man, God said it, that makes it the truth. Don't ask
>ME why, I'm just a human like you. At least I'm wise enough
>to know that God cares about me and is TRYING to show me the
>way. Hopefully, you won't let pride get in your way and
>you'll "see the light" one day too. Take care man...

Boyles Law is all about a joke, do you get it? Everyone else seemed to have understood that. We all got a good laugh over it. Maybe you are wound up to tight about this. I am not angry about you, or anything, mistake made there in your assumptiom.

Jesus said a lot of things and I don't deny any of them. I was'nt around to hear them. So I am not here to deny them. And there you go again saying I am "boxing" God in. I do nothing of the sort. I told you I did'nt believe in absolutes, but apparently you don't read the posts too carefully. Call me ignorant if you must, but my writing speaks for itself. Oh also, about seeing the light. Some have been "blinded by the light, reved up like a duece, another runner in the night"! Check out Bruce's song and you will know what I mean!
BTW You did'nt answer us about where all of your non believers go?

Pax vobiscum.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-Nov-02 AT 12:45 PM (EST)]I've been reading these posts the past few days, trying to decide if it was worthwhile to respond...and since my personal views are rather unique, I decided to reply in order to add a bit of variety. Plus, I'm hoping to redirect a few people's emotions before this thread turns into something that gets locked.

Obviously this is the type of question that will get people worked up - most of us have very strongly held beliefs, and nobody likes to see their core beliefs challenged. However, we also have to remember that you generally learn more from the people who disagree with you than you do from the people who share your own views - from disagreements comes new knowledge. I've learned a few things reading this thread, and I'm hoping that others have too...and even if your personal views haven't changed, perhaps it has given more insight into the way other people think and the reasoning behind their beliefs.

My beliefs - for what they are worth - are as follows:

I consider myself a Christian, though that does not mean that I support the Christian church in any way, shape, or form. It does not even mean that I believe the Bible in its present form is the word of God, or that I think only Christians will get into heaven - because I disagree strongly on both accounts. At this point, 99% of the modern-day 'Christians' are thinking to themselves "what an idiot!" which is fine because they are entitled to their own views as I am entitled to mine.

After many years of studying, praying, and debate with people of various religions I came to the conclusion that what Christ was trying to teach us was this:

1) Religion is a personal thing between you and God, no middlemen required.
2) In your heart you know what's right...so do it. You can't learn morality from a book or from a religious figure, it comes from inside.
3) Your relationship with God is a gift, and to use it for personal gain is to risk losing it.

I think this is what he was trying to say, and I think his original message has been lost in the multiple interpretations and alterations the Bible has gone through. I have no doubt that certain sections of the Bible were originally the word of God, but over the years that message has either been completely lost or at least become very well hidden. The problem is, any church or religious figure that accepts payment (or gains power) in exchange for their teachings is - IMHO, based on Christ's message - therefore corrupt. And, I'm counting room & board as "payment" - not just currency. The more a religious figure takes, the farther they end up straying from God - until you get to extremes, like televangelists...or how the Church of England was at the time of the founding of our nation. Instead of being closer to God, these people are actually much farther out of touch than the average Joe on the street.

Anyway, almost every time the Bible was changed it was by a group of people who were profiting off their relationship with God - and therefore they were tainted, and the portion of the Bible they touched became corrupted. So, after many many years not only is most of the Bible untrustworthy, but we don't know which parts are the true Word and which are not. Therefore, it is at one's own peril that they accept the full Bible as the Word of God.

But, the good thing is that you don't need it. As has been said before, whenever Man tries to translate the true meaning of the Bible he makes mistakes...and as another poster said, the only one you can trust to interpret the Bible for you is God. If this is true, then ask yourself this: why do you need the Bible at all, if you need God's help to interpret it correctly anyway? Why not just bring your concerns directly to God? I know that now 99.9% of people disagree with me, but in my opinion if you need God to interpret the Bible because of the way it has been corrupted by man over the years, then you might as well voice your concerns directly to God in the first place.

Plus, not only do I disagree with the way the Bible is currently used, I think people use it far too often. Doesn't each person have their own moral compass, to determine right from wrong? Are we to assume that we were created by God, but yet he didn't think to teach us right from wrong? I suppose that one could argue that like a magnet, evil has the ability to cause our moral compass to point away from true north...but I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that we still know what is right and wrong, and to sin is to know something is wrong and to do it anyway. I think that for the most part we have the ability and knowledge to make our own decisions in life, turning to God only when we feel the proper path is unclear. Why do we turn to the Bible - or even worse, to our religious figures - every single time we're presented with a tough decision? Is it because we don't know right from wrong, or because we don't have the guts to make the decision we already know is right and need additional encouragement? I think it's usually the latter - we know the right thing to do, but we lack the willpower to do it.

I think that's the true measure of a man - if they have the guts to do what's right no matter what the consequences. Whatever form Heaven takes, whether or not we gain entrance will be decided by how we responded when forced to answer the tough questions - not by whether or not we accepted Christ, or if we went to church regularly, or if we put enough in the plate. This is why I think that heaven is certainly not limited to Christians - a person who lives a good and decent life and works for the betterment of his fellow man is not going to go to Hell just because he happened to be born in a region of the world that worships God under another name. If the modern-day "Christians" are correct and that's the case, I'll gladly go to hell with all the Buddhists...and Hindus, and Taoists, and Shintoists, and Native Americans.

That's the interesting thing about my views - either I'm right and can work my way into a Heaven I want to be in, or I'm wrong and avoid going to a Heaven I wouldn't want to be in. It's a win/win situation, really...just so long as I have the fortitude to make the right decisions on the tough calls in life.

LK

 

LK, Interesting and well thought out post. Like you I personally have a different view of these issues than the mainstream.

It occurrs to me that the bible is a collection of seperate works created thousands of years ago in another language that is quite possibly dead today. It was then probably told from person to person until someone wrote it down. Then it was hand copied countless times over and eventually translated from one language to another untill we finally have what is printed today. And today we even have several different versions/translations. (king james, NIV, etc). I don't believe it is the word of God, directly written by God, edited by God, printed by God, and distributed by God. That said I do believe there are good ideas/information there and good reason to read it.

Heck, I believe that Genesis is a story about innocence lost. Not the iron-clad 'the earth was created in 6 days 6000 years ago' that some profess. When I read it I see a story of young children being born ('in the beginning'), becoming aware of their surroundings ('created day and night'), learning ('naming the animals'), growing and playing (living in the garden). Then learning about sex, losing innocence and having to leave home (the garden) and make a life for themselves. Try reading the story again, substitute cherry for apple, think of what the serpent could be representing, and why would the apple(cherry) tree be in the middle of the garden (body?)? Think about it for a while.


So why in the old testament is God so directly and sometimes destructively involved in man's existence. Then in the new testament it's all love and fuzzies (man's relationship to God)? It's sort of like George Carland's description of football (old testament) vs baseball (new testament).

Sometimes it's just more fun to have a different perspective than the rest of the herd.

 

LK I also agree, well thought out post. It is refreshing to see folks that understand rational views and share them with their felllow man. I am with you and your philosophical direction. I just can't agree with the absolutist thought that excludes everyone but themselves from their version of afterlife, and the path thereto. I think they focus too much on that heavenly reward rather than living wholesome for the day. I don't require a book to do this, but some may need one. I hope it helps them in their journey to where they want to go. I surmise that those with a clear vision do not need the windshield wipers of self congratulatory attainment.

Pax vobiscum

 

Very good posts toward the END of this thread. On the otherhand wxBOY I have two words. PROVE IT. You speak with such absolutism. You have never spoken with God, I know this and so do the others. This is directed only at wxBOY. People have their beliefs I have Zero problem with that, it's people that are so blinded by their faith that they cannot accept others that may have a different beliefs. You might be missing out on chance to get to know someone that might brighten your life down here on Earth. Instead you speak with such intolerance that I imagine you drive people away from yourself that may have a different view. Is that because you think that they are beneath you if they don't believe as you do? I don't know, but man I have lots of friends that don't see eye to eye with me on this topic that help me enjoy the life I CURRENTLY have versus an afterlife that I have no proof of.

 

I think this is up to each individual to decide. I personally do believe but to what extent...I don't know. I haven't taken the time to research into my soul yet.

 

>Heres where i become a major minnority!! I do not believe
>in "god",or anything of the likes,my thoughts are evoloution
>broughts us to where we are now and if we treat this planet
>better and each other better we will continue to prosper
>(sorry i know my spelling is horrible).
> I believe we, as humans, are hard wired to beleive in some
>form of a diety to prevent us from going crazy knowing that
>once we die thats it, lights out,party's over, sorta like
>cats are hard wired to chase mice,dogs to chase cats,ect..
> All the people in history, even those back woods tribes in
>austrailia still being discoveried believe in some form of
>diety, they all may be different and do different things but
>my feelings are it because we(as humans) are afraid of death
>and this is our minds way of making our mortality more
>acceptable..
>
>just my 0.02 please no hate mail
i agree with you. but i also think the bible is a book of morals or guide lines to live by(a fictional book with good intent)