>I for one believe in JESUS CHRIST and every word of the Bible as it >is writen wether I like wat it says or not GOD is tru and so is his >word.

Three things
1st
Its all in the way it is interpreted, one church-or pastor- will take a passage to mean one thing, while another will feel it means the opposite. Thats why there are so many different sects of christianity, from catholics to mormons we all use essentially the same book and have vastly different interpretations of god's word.

2nd
you can justify just about any position using quotes from the bible if you are creative, noting that the original meaning of the passage may have been lost, but i think that is the case many times anyway
case in point- lyrics to a song:

"LET'S GET SERIOUS! HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOIN'! HE WROTE THIS BOOK HERE,
'N THE BOOK SAYS: "HE MADE US ALL TO BE JUST LIKE HIM," SO...
IF WE'RE DUMB, THEN GOD IS DUMB,
('N MAYBE EVEN A LITTLE BIT UGLY ON THE SIDE)"
(FZ You are what you is)


3rd
It all depends on what book you are using, who is to say that your book is right, but the old testatment, the koran and others are in error

 

tab,

No, don't assume that because I stated Jesus to be a prophet that I think him a true prophet, just a self proclaimed prophet. He may have been a liar, or he may have been crazy. I can believe that he was a man with good intentions and a good heart attempting to show the masses a better life without believing he rose 3 days after his death, or that he was the son of God. Just because Joseph claimed his wife was a virgin does not make it so. People were just as treacherous and deceitful back then as they are now. I can believe a man named Jesus was here, and that he walked around preaching to people. I do not have to believe he was anything more than that. That is where faith comes in. I have absolutely no faith in a religion or a God that would let so many suffer, just to have the people say, "oh, it's His will, and only He knows the purpose".

You can believe the Bible as written, you can believe it as visions of the future that the then current man could not comprehend, as dreams and stories, or as a giant collection of metaphors. Who is correct? None of you know for sure. Like I said, if a man 2000 years ago were to have a "vision" of a helicopter, what would he think it to be? Maybe a huge locust?

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews disbelieve in Jesus as the son of God? If Jesus is a Jew, and the Jews themselves are still waiting for the FIRST COMING of the son of God, aren't the christians wrong? After all, aren't the Jews the chosen people? Are they wrong?

 

> That is where faith comes in. I
>have absolutely no faith in a religion or a God that would
>let so many suffer, just to have the people say, "oh, it's
>His will, and only He knows the purpose".

It has nothing to do with faith. Man has choosen to allow death and hatred into this world. It was not God's will. Man choose this. This all goes back to Adam and the apple. If you reject that story, then all I can say is that at some point in time Man choose to reject the Gifts God offered and instead was attracted to what Satan had. Now we know what Satan had to offer.

>Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews disbelieve in
>Jesus as the son of God? If Jesus is a Jew, and the Jews
>themselves are still waiting for the FIRST COMING of the son
>of God, aren't the christians wrong? After all, aren't the
>Jews the chosen people? Are they wrong?

Sighs...Takes a deep breath.

Tim, you have a general awareness of some of the going on's in the Bible. You ask questions which tells me you want to know more. A great deal of what you have posted I would say are misperceptions. I think it is possible to answer your questions but I do not think it's possible in this forum. It is going to take sitting down with someone, and talking through it all. This will not happen in a hour or a day. It will take time. I am not saying you need to do this in order to be saved. I'm saying it so that you can get the answers to your questions.

 

This is a touchy subject and I was hesitant to respond at first. Actually yesterday I did try to post a response, but I lost the message. hehe.

Here's my opinion, for better or worse.

#1 : I do not consider the Bible to be the direct word of god. I consider it to be a "guide" to life. The Bible was written by men, and these men held their own perceptions of what God wanted from them at the time. In my opinion, this doesn't mean that what is in the bible is (The Word of God). Maybe, (The Word of Man as he understood God at the time.) might be more accurate.
Further, I feel that many perceptions and misconceptions have changed since the writing of the Bible was originally begun. Many questions have been answered, that were not during that time. I feel the bible is a good GUIDE in many cases, but it is no longer the END ALL-BE ALL on God.

NOTE : The Bible is a very contrary piece of text, In one passage you can find the message that we should love all creatures, no matter how dastardly, even homosexuals. even non-believers. In another passage, Homosexuals, and non-believers are not to be tolerated. The Bible is a GUIDE, and even within it's own text, that guide changed and evolved over a period of time. I believe some things happened in the Bible, and some things did not happen. Further, it is my opinion that those who believe the Bible word for word, passage for passage, would also believe that ESP, Wicca, etc, is real. You cannot believe one without the other, they are all based on the same concept. And if you protest that, you are being quite contrary yourself. I stress the word OPINION here.

And yes, I've read and researched the Bible, when I was younger and looking for answers. I found the concepts interesting, I found that some incidents in the Bible probably did occurr, while others were just the intellectual guesses of men raised during that era.

#2 I do believe in God. I do not believe God is responsible for man's actions. -- God gave us free will. Everything from AIDS to Nuclear Radiation was created, by, US. By the mistakes of humans, not God.

#3 I do not believe in Religion. Religion is responsible for some of the most horrific acts of violence and perversion known throughout our history. A few examples --

The Spanish Inquisition (Millions died in the name of GOD. Via the Catholic Church)

The Salem Witch Burning Trials. (America's version of the Spanish Inquisition)

World War II. Hitler destroyed Millions in the name of his God and his Superior Race.

The Crusades - Death in the name of God.

The Muslims - Death to Americans in the name of God.

Israel - Death to the Palestines in the name of God.

Palestine - Death to Everyone in the name of God.

Let's not forget the KKK, Who have murdered in the name of God.

Or the Neo-****'s, WHo have murdered in the name of God.

-----------------------------------------------------
With a record like this (and this is just a FEW. VERY FEW.) You can pretty much see that Religion teaches hate. People don't just HATE. They hate because they are SOCIALIZED TO HATE. HATE is LEARNED! And You name it, Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Mormons, they all teach their very own unique version of HATE.

As Well, Religions, especially Catholics, believe that while God Gave EVERY ONE OF US the Free Will to CHOOSE our lives accordingly, they should regulate our Free Will by telling us how to live. Sorry, that's no longer Free Will, that's the Enslavement of Free Will, and it is something the Catholic Church has been trying to do for hundreds of years. (Back to the Spanish Inquisition again.)

Religions are a JOKE, and they always have been. There was only one time in man's history when Religion was not used as an excuse to kill, murder, rape, and destroy. That's right, it was when Jesus Christ walked the earth. Back then it was the Romans who did the murdering.

It's my OPINION, that these Priests, Ministers, etc. Are going to have a LOT to answer for. If I were God, I'd be tired of having everyone use my name as a stamp of approval everytime I wanted to kill a group of people.

I know a lot of people may have something to say about this. But the Record Stands. There have been more crimes against man and nature committed by religious factions than any other kind of war in history.

And remember this, 9/11 was perpetrated in the Name of God. Now, where do ya think they got the idea that God thinks it's ok to kill people, and in such a cowardly manner? Were they Taught? or did they just come up with this on their own?

Religions = The Teaching of Hate, under the guise of Love. It's the biggest joke of the millenium.

Religion also teaches egotistical mannerisms and a false superiority complex. a (mine's better than yours) situation.

I blame religion and the teaching of hate within religion for most of the Atrocities committed nowadays. The rest I rack up to Stupidity, Psychosis, and Greed.

 

>> That is where faith comes in. I
>>have absolutely no faith in a religion or a God that would
>>let so many suffer, just to have the people say, "oh, it's
>>His will, and only He knows the purpose".

God Doesn't cause this, however, I applaud your feelings on religion.
The institution of religion is a horrible thing in my opinion.

>
>It has nothing to do with faith. Man has choosen to allow
>death and hatred into this world. It was not God's will. Man
>choose this. This all goes back to Adam and the apple. If
>you reject that story, then all I can say is that at some
>point in time Man choose to reject the Gifts God offered and
>instead was attracted to what Satan had. Now we know what
>Satan had to offer.

Man Doesn't choose Death, Death Chooses man. We all Die, however man can choose to murder, destroy, etc. Man is taught Hate, much of this Hate has come directly from the teachings and interpretations of Religious groups, like the Catholics. (Catholics are an example, they are NOT, by far, the only religious group to teach hate, self superiority, and an elitist attitude to its followers)

>
>>Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews disbelieve in
>>Jesus as the son of God? If Jesus is a Jew, and the Jews
>>themselves are still waiting for the FIRST COMING of the son
>>of God, aren't the christians wrong? After all, aren't the
>>Jews the chosen people? Are they wrong?
>
The Jewish people believe that Jesus was a Prophet. With that said, Right and Wrong is a Perception, not a reality. For instance : When the bible was written it was acceptable for men to have many wives and/or cheat on their wives. In today's world, it is no longer socially acceptable. This is a perception, it is not reality. Right and Wrong have only as much credence as we give it. The simple fact is, there is NO right or wrong, there is only what we as a society perceive to be right or wrong.

If you want a few solid answers. here they are. : We are born, we live, we die.

What we do with everything else is nothing more than a series of choices. Choices that may be right or wrong, depending on the society we live in at the time.

Honestly, I think you would find more answers to life's questions by taking a sociology class or two, and learning from our own history. The Bible can be very confusing as it condradicts itself often until you learn that the bible is a Guide, and not the literal word of god. Remember, the Bible was written by man who had their own perceptions of right and wrong. Men who had made their own choices throughout life. When you look at it like this, without discounting all of it, but being a critical thinker, it begins to make a lot more sense. Be a critic.

For instance : There is proof that Noah's Ark existed, archeologists have found and dated parts of the hull of this Ark. This does not mean, that every instance is truth. The men who wrote the revelations, IE the end of the world stuff, were praised for their writings. Yet others who predicted different ends, were denounced. Yet if we believe that it is possible for one person to predict these ends, we must admit it is possible that someone else could predict different events. This is perception, it's not right, and it's not wrong.

There are some things that most societies deem to be wrong, like Murder. however, we deem the death's caused by the 9/11 incident as wrong, as murder. Yet the Muslims believe it to be self defense and punishment for crimes that the free world has inflicted on them.

Of course everyone in America will believe it is wrong, and it is. hehe. Yet the Muslims believe it is right.

So who really is right?

Imagine a world where Hitler was right, and Won. We, all of us would be socialized to believe that his way was right. You may think it's not possible, but research shows that it is. I could take a child and train him to believe that killing all black men they see is right. And for the rest of his life, he would believe it, and no one could tell him he was wrong for believing it.

Scary isn't it?

>Sighs...Takes a deep breath.
>
>Tim, you have a general awareness of some of the going on's
>in the Bible. You ask questions which tells me you want to
>know more. A great deal of what you have posted I would say
>are misperceptions.

Like Beauty, Perception is in the mind of the owner.

 

>Ice, Ice,Ice, me? Hypocritical? Say it ain't so!

>
>Debate yes, push no.If they're forcing, or pushing then they
>are not following the teachings of Christ.

thats the problem, to some they are following the teachings. to christians like you, their not......who's right? thats the hard thing for people like me to understand, their are soooo many contradictions by the very people of your faith.


>christians are always trying to
>>"save" people from their own religon or beliefs and believe
>>their god is the only and true god.
>
>Ice, you're stereotyping all Christians. Not all of us are
>"you'd better get Jesus or you're gonna burn in Hell"
>types.I do however believe that my God is the only true God.
>No apologies there.

do you realize that what you just said is a contradiction in itself? how can you not be a " get jesus or burn in hell" type and still believe that yours is the only true god?

>> a co-worker of mine and i were sitting next to one another
>>at lunch reading different sections of the news paper. in
>>the section he had there was a photo of a hindu woman
>>"clensing " herself of her sins in a river. he turned to me
>>and said" you know thats not gonna work, she needs jesus" to
>>which i said "it works for her".
>
>My position-total agreement with you. But MY beliefs are
>otherwise.

again, contradiction. how can you agree with me that "it works for her" but in your previous reply you said that yours is the only true god? another thing.....was my co-worker an example of those who do not follow the "teachings" of christ? he was a (for lack of a better word) "pusher" . id like to see you tell him that he wasnt following the teachings cuz he certainly believed he was.

>> another one is a sign at the exit of a church positioned so
>>only the people who go to this paticular church can see it
>>when they exit says "you are now entering the mission feild"
>>and under lists the passage in the bible it comes from.
>
>Nice sign! I'm with them. I'll see about posting one at my
>church!

that really bothers me. how is the outside world(meaning outside of the church campus) the "mission feild" if you arent trying to convert people? tell me exactly what is the "mission"?

> not to mention all the
>>billboards i see along the highway telling me id better find
>>jesus or else.
>
>Well, we are supposed to tell people about Jesus.

why? why are you supposed to "tell people about jesus"? you dont trust people to go and seek him themselvs? or are you trying to get to them before they become a member of another faith?

>> i dont mind a healthy debate on this subject but the last
>>thing i want to hear is a christian telling ME not to push
>>my beliefs on them.
>
>What I MEANT was I had a problem with Christians, Muslims,
>Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, Atheists, or anyone else for that
>matter who FORCES their beliefs on another person. BTW,
>Jesus felt the same way. He hated organized religion as
>well, but He said, "whosoever will", not "everybody better
>or else." It's a gift, not a required course.

if jesus felt that way....why didnt people follow his teachings and not organize? also....why are you then a member of an organized religion?

>> also, why is it that whenever a real hard pressing question
>>is asked of a christian about their beliefs and why, the
>>answer is always something like " well, god works in
>>mysterious ways " ?
>
>I didn't give that answer. If you'd care to look up the last
>time E.E. posted something of this nature, I went into great
>detail to answer all his questions as best I could.So did
>Brian, Paul, and Ron.

i never said YOU did, but that is often the response.







Read not to comdemn but to consider

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-Oct-02 AT 08:16 PM (EST)]>I have read to posts here that confused me just a lot both
>stated that they believed basicaly or implied that they
>believed that the bible was the word of GOD. but they spoke
>of two man made thearies that of which I dunt understand.
>One was "I as a Catholic believe in Purgatory" ok...

>2. I have heard of this Purgatory aspect from only
>the catholic church but the only thing I got from it was it
>was a way for the catholic chruch to make money. I was told
>by a cotholic priest that if a family member has died then
>they have gone to purgatory and if I waould pay the catholic
>church they would pray to GOD for there relise into heaven.
>Dont know if this is what you believe or not and I hope not
>but my Question is not what but where you believe. I for one
>believe in JESUS CHRIST and every word of the Bible as it is
>writen wether I like wat it says or not GOD is tru and so is
>his word.


I'm not sure if you misunderstood this priest or he was using it as a way to make money, but Purgatory is not man made and is an imporant part of our faith.

Here's some quotes from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" which is officially approved by the Pope and is used to teach us about our faith.

section 1030- "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness neccessary to enter the joy of heaven."

section 1031- "The (Catholic) Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of the cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1: 7

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentnece we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. - St. Gregory the Great"

section 1032- "The teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: 'Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin.' (Yes we need to pray for the dead, but prayers don't cost money. You are able to make contibutions to a church by purchasing a Mass Card, this means that a Eucharistic Celebration will be said in their memory. You can still pray for them without paying anything, the Masses are just for extra graces) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayer in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic Sacrifice (Mass), so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead"

HWY_Apostle, I hope this helps to answer your question. This is what I believe and I used thier words as they can explain much better than I could.

Sorry for the long post, this has to be worth more than my $.02

 

American Muscle, I kinda see where you're coming from but don't totally agree. I can speak for my church that they DO NOT promote hate. Furthermore, them telling us how to live is not the church talking, it's God talking. We still have free will, we can do whatever the #### we want. But only if we live by God's commandments can we earn a ticket into heaven. That being said, I believe that God is compassionate and will have mercy on those who don't know "The Truth" or have been fed lies (ie people that grew up under Hitler and knew no different).

The examples you mentioned I feel are examples of religion being perverted by these groups. I have no doubt that God wept when the two planes hit the twin towers. No doubt what hurt Him even more was that it was done "in his name". These are not religions, they started from there but were twisted into evil. I feel it is likely the work of the devil.


Here's two more of my pennies to toss on the pile.

 

>
>>Ice, Ice,Ice, me? Hypocritical? Say it ain't so!
>
>>
>>Debate yes, push no.If they're forcing, or pushing then they
>>are not following the teachings of Christ.
>
>thats the problem, to some they are following the teachings.
>to christians like you, their not......who's right? thats
>the hard thing for people like me to understand, their are
>soooo many contradictions by the very people of your faith.

You can find "extremists" who push the beliefs of anything over the edge. Again, Jesus said,"whosoever will" it's an offer not a requirement. If you choose to "go to Hell", according to my faith, then it's just that...a choice.
>
>
>>christians are always trying to
>>>"save" people from their own religon or beliefs and believe
>>>their god is the only and true god.
>>
>>Ice, you're stereotyping all Christians. Not all of us are
>>"you'd better get Jesus or you're gonna burn in Hell"
>>types.I do however believe that my God is the only true God.
>>No apologies there.
>
> do you realize that what you just said is a contradiction
>in itself? how can you not be a " get jesus or burn in hell"
>type and still believe that yours is the only true god?

If you think it's a contradiction, you misunderstood me.I'm referring to the attitude taken by some "Christians" who feel they MUST get others to convert to the faith. I'm talking about the religious zealots or fanatics.(Found in every religion as well as the secular world) A true Christian will let their life speak as an example. If someone sees the peace, the joy, the happiness of a life of service to the Lord, they may want that for themselves. In which case, I'll be glad to share the gospel.
>
>>> a co-worker of mine and i were sitting next to one another
>>>at lunch reading different sections of the news paper. in
>>>the section he had there was a photo of a hindu woman
>>>"clensing " herself of her sins in a river. he turned to me
>>>and said" you know thats not gonna work, she needs jesus" to
>>>which i said "it works for her".
>>
>>My position-total agreement with you. But MY beliefs are
>>otherwise.
>
> again, contradiction. how can you agree with me that "it
>works for her" but in your previous reply you said that
>yours is the only true god?

If she is happy, if she's content, if she truly believes that muddy water can cleanse her of her "sins" and she feels truly at peace with her creator/teacher/life force/higher power etc. Then I doubt anything I said would make a difference to her. MY belief is in MY faith however. I believe my God is the only true God. But, again I refer you to the above answer about leading a true Christian life.

another thing.....was my
>co-worker an example of those who do not follow the
>"teachings" of christ? he was a (for lack of a better word)
>"pusher" . id like to see you tell him that he wasnt
>following the teachings cuz he certainly believed he was.

I'm sorry, he was mistaken. Jesus told his disciples that if they went to any town and were not received, to shake the dust from their feet and leave. He didn't say draw the sword and make war. It's a free offer.
>
>>> another one is a sign at the exit of a church positioned so
>>>only the people who go to this paticular church can see it
>>>when they exit says "you are now entering the mission feild"
>>>and under lists the passage in the bible it comes from.
>>
>>Nice sign! I'm with them. I'll see about posting one at my
>>church!
>
> that really bothers me. how is the outside world(meaning
>outside of the church campus) the "mission feild" if you
>arent trying to convert people? tell me exactly what is the
>"mission"?

The mission is what we call the "Great Commission". Again, it is to tell the world about Jesus. "Go and tell every creature", It's a commandment from God. Besides, once someone has experienced being forgiven for a life of sin, you have to tell someone! Again, it is to tell, not like the Islamic faith--convert or die, infidel! If you're not interested, then fine. Don't bother them again. The Gospel is to be presented respectfully to others.
>
>> not to mention all the
>>>billboards i see along the highway telling me id better find
>>>jesus or else.
>>
>>Well, we are supposed to tell people about Jesus.
>
> why? why are you supposed to "tell people about jesus"?

It's a commandment.

you
>dont trust people to go and seek him themselvs?

It's not a matter of trust.Do you really think Satan would prompt you to seek God?Since the beginning of time, man has been seeking God. Because God put the knowledge of His existence in man.

>trying to get to them before they become a member of another
>faith?

Get to them? It's an offer. It's NOT supposed to be a membership drive. The commandment is to go into all the world and PRESENT the Gospel. What people choose to do with it is between them and their Creator.
>
>>> i dont mind a healthy debate on this subject but the last
>>>thing i want to hear is a christian telling ME not to push
>>>my beliefs on them.
>>
>>What I MEANT was I had a problem with Christians, Muslims,
>>Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, Atheists, or anyone else for that
>>matter who FORCES their beliefs on another person. BTW,
>>Jesus felt the same way. He hated organized religion as
>>well, but He said, "whosoever will", not "everybody better
>>or else." It's a gift, not a required course.
>
>if jesus felt that way....why didnt people follow his
>teachings and not organize?

See the commandment above concerning the "Great Commission".

also....why are you then a
>member of an organized religion?

God didn't start a religion. Except for the ancient Jews. God wants a relationship which is what I have with him. I belong to a non-denominational church but I understand your question. I am a member of a faith group. I am among the followers of Christ. Nothing more. I have many things in common with Baptists, Methodists, Pentcostals, Catholics,Presbyterians,Lutherans, etc. as well as many differences.
>
>>> also, why is it that whenever a real hard pressing question
>>>is asked of a christian about their beliefs and why, the
>>>answer is always something like " well, god works in
>>>mysterious ways " ?
>>
>>I didn't give that answer. If you'd care to look up the last
>>time E.E. posted something of this nature, I went into great
>>detail to answer all his questions as best I could.So did
>>Brian, Paul, and Ron.
>
> i never said YOU did, but that is often the response.

Yes, you are correct. The Bible says to "study to show thyself approved", It also says to "always be ready with an answer for the reason you believe." People that aren't ready to give that answer either haven't studied, or are giving you the brush off. Both of which are wrong.

There are bad apples in every bushel. Many times throughout history people have brought reproach upon the name of Christ. As was posted before-- witch hunts, Inquisition, wars, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. I don't believe God intended any of this, but if you believe in God, then you MUST believe in Satan. He, also, has great influence over the minds of men. Sure God can, and does, overrule him, but God doesn't want robots. God gave us a free-will to serve Him or not. It's up to you.

Chuck

>Read not to comdemn but to consider

 

>tab,
>
>No, don't assume that because I stated Jesus to be a prophet
>that I think him a true prophet, just a self proclaimed
>prophet. He may have been a liar, or he may have been crazy.
>I can believe that he was a man with good intentions and a
>good heart attempting to show the masses a better life
>without believing he rose 3 days after his death, or that he
>was the son of God. Just because Joseph claimed his wife was
>a virgin does not make it so. People were just as
>treacherous and deceitful back then as they are now. I can
>believe a man named Jesus was here, and that he walked
>around preaching to people. I do not have to believe he was
>anything more than that. That is where faith comes in. I
>have absolutely no faith in a religion or a God that would
>let so many suffer, just to have the people say, "oh, it's
>His will, and only He knows the purpose".
>


OK......it sounds like you have chosen to believe Jesus was a lunatic....a man with "good intentions" but dreadfully deceived.

>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews disbelieve in
>Jesus as the son of God? If Jesus is a Jew, and the Jews
>themselves are still waiting for the FIRST COMING of the son
>of God, aren't the christians wrong? After all, aren't the
>Jews the chosen people? Are they wrong?



My whole point is that Jesus made some definitive, exclusive claims about himself which I have outlined. In the scope of ultimate truth, he was either right or wrong.......no middle ground when it comes to Jesus and his claims. And it is incumbent upon everyone to make a decision on his claims based on truth......which is found in the evidence......evidence that demands a verdict (which, btw, is the title of an excellent book on Christian apologetics by Josh McDowell).

In reality, the only prophets are true prophets, for false prophets are not prophets at all. The Jews believe Jesus was a prophet, but deny his prophecies. Thus, they are being inconsistent, as I contend most of us are when we say Jesus was a good man and a prophet, but deny his claims and prophecies.

Now, to answer your question: Yes, based on the evidence, I believe they are wrong. The Jews are God's chosen people, but as such they have still made many mistakes along the way, as evidenced in the Old Testament (The Old Testament btw, is an excellent foreshadowing of Jesus the Messiah). Can the Christian faith be wrong? I suppose.....but as it says in scripture, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." This verse is found in the text below, which makes for interesting reading in light of the discussion on this thread:

"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." 1 Corinthians 15:12-20

Think about it.

 

American Muscle I have often thought many of the things you have stated, and have been tired of hearing from others, "you gotta believe in something" etc. etc....... I tell them it's not that I am athiest, but many things "Christians" say are so contradictory it is laughable. For example, that god has a plan for all of us, but he sends the "bad" ones (this term bad is dependent on what our social beliefs are at the time) to hell. But wait, if he created us all and knows our ends, then he must know our beginning middle and ends........because even the slightest decisions could put you an inch away from that bullet that was meant for you right? So, he must know every decision, step, breath etc. you will take to know what your demise will be. Therefore if he meant for you to die in a bloody shoot out because you killed someone else, then he planned for you to kill that person, which to me wouldn't make sense. Because if that is such a bad thing, why would he only choose to make certain people bad? Because if we believe that we all have "our time" then god has already pre-decided our fate...........But then they state we have free will, which isn't possible if we already have our path layed out. I hope this makes sense, very hard to put into words. Basically, I live my life by the basis that if something hurts someone mentally or physically, I shouldn't do it, even if it's not deemed bad, or even if rather than hurting someone else it made them happy, if it upsets the person i do it to then i feel bad. God why is this so hard to write and make it make sense?

I also find it funy that god would want you to worship him if he is such a selfless "person" (we don't know what he is). If someone worshipped me, i'd feel bad, because I'd give life not to be worshiped but just for it to be appreciated, now perhaps a prair saying thank you etc. would be wonderful, to be reminded people appreciate it, but not to torment them with long *interpretations* of a book written by other imperfect people, years ago before they had half the understanding of what we do today. Here's my other argument, if i were to claim i was the son of god today I would be laughed at. Why? I have just as much evidence as he did if you think about it. I'm not saying he is or he isn't but why are we so open minded to the bible and so close minded to other things. The truth be known, live your life by the rule to try and not hurt anyone, and appreciate this life and live it to the fullest, and thank whatever you believe in for allowing you this greatest of journeys and I think you will make out alright. It is ok to have beliefs of any kind, just don't hurt people for any reason, unless they try to hurt you first, and then it's only acceptable if life threatening. I'm sure no one is trully right, for if we were it'd take the novelty out of life and make it boring. I just still trully think that we cannot comprehend the complexity of life yet we continue to analyze it. I think my before article that no one replied to hardly explained it pretty well but let me take an example out of calculating god a book i read.

These aliens come here, and one group of them does not have the ability to hone in one specific object, but rather they see all objects in a 360 degree circle, but have no focal point. This allows them to see things in a whole new manner, one we cannot possibly comprehend and offers them benefits and drawbacks, but because not only can they not focus on things with their eyes, they can't with their brains either. This allows them to see connections between two things better, because there are no "steps" as we see them. Every action we see has to have steps, but if you had this ability it would just all kinda flow I imagine. My point which is probably not to clear is still just that we abstract things and make ourselves the focus of the universe Who's to say we're god's most prized creation? perhaps he has some just like us who live peacefully somewhere else, or perhaps the animals are his prized creations because they don't question what he's given them, they just live, and eat, and sleep as they are supposed to without altering his scenery? I could babble on all day and this and the other post would probably only make sense to me, but it's as if my thoughts evolve with my typing and i see things in a new light each time i begin to write.

about freud, i have no studied him in depth but i know he believed that everything we do consciously has an unconscious origin. This is also interesting, becasue we have many parts of our brain we do not currently use.........perhaps we have not evolved our thinking enough to access these abilities? And what really is different about our conscious and unconscious state of being, what is the barrier there, the on and off switch if you will? You see the more you delve into our biological mockup and into the universal mockup the less things seem to make sense, the more questions that arrise. This is what drives me nuts, the more i learn the more i realize how little i really do know. You see this is why i deem intelligence a burden, because I have been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in the past, this causes people to do things that are illogical even to themselves, but if they don't do them they experience great anxiety. It caused me to analyze everything to see every possible outcome, and although i'm no longer inflicted with the high anxiety (worst times of my life, has come and gone twice for a period of four years in total) I still "over-analyze" everything but will hopefully someday make a good discovery because of this burden lol, at least to myself it will be a good one. Perhaps no one else?

Sorry for babbling hope something i said made some sense. I just get tired of people trying to get me to go to their church. Why push beliefs on people............in the end it all seems to come down to money and power if you ask me...........the two worst things on earth, yet the two most necessary...............isn't that perplexing. Without either we'd all be lazy and do nothing and make very few advancements in technology....Yet without them we would also have a thousandth perhaps millionth of the violence and suffering we do have.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-Oct-02 AT 05:33 AM (EST)]I BELIEVE in the INFINITE POSSIBILITIES...


I went to High School with the Hopi Tribal Chief's daughter, in Arizona. I spent many years on tribal land, mostly in Shonghopovi (one of the oldest known Native American settlements in the US) & may still be the only white person to have witnessed many & participated in some sacred ceremonies.

I believe in God, yet I believe in the Grandfathers & my Spirit Guide.

I will never explain what I witnessed, but... I believe in greater powers than what we know or THINK we know.

Jane

P/S & Yes, I too studied Theology, to understand the misnomers in modern religion.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-Oct-02 AT 07:03 AM (EST)]Wow what a hot, hot, topic

 

In response to your many deep and probing questions, here are my beliefs, thoughts and views with scripture to backup some of my beliefs.

>Do you believe in God?

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as described in the Old and New Testaments, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. A triune God, One yet three.
How can that be you say, consider something we can understand like water in solid, liquid and gaseous form. All the same, yet different with different functions and uses yet all connected with identical base properties.

>Do you believe in creation versus evolution?

I believe God created the Heavens and Earth as stated in Genesis 1.
I recently read an article that stated that by 2030 there would be no more natural blond babies as more and more blond people are having children with brown and black haired people, thus eliminating the blond recessive gene. If I were an evolutionist, I'd have to state that after millions or billions of years of evolution resulting in the diversity that we see today, the blond gene is going to disappear in less than 30 years. That just doesn't make sense.

>Do you believe in the Bible as written, or is it
>just a good book about how to behave and be decent?

I believe the Bible to be the Word of God as written.
Man has tried to disprove the Bible many times, attempting to find contradictions and flaws. There aren't any! Consider that the Bible was written by dozens of men (as directed by the Holy Spirit) across thousands of years. Modern man can't record current events correctly let alone get dozens of reporters or historians to completely agree and not contradict each other.

>The thing that brings this up is all the fighting between
>religious groups and also, all the evil that happens to so
>many good people everyday.

God didn't create religions; man did in his attempt to get to God on his (man's) terms. Satan knows that the easiest way to distract the relationship between man and God is to create division over small differences. Even differences between evangelical Christian churches are over differences in opinion of interpretations of the Bible.

>If God is all seeing, all knowing, and has a plan for
>everyone, why don't we just sit back and wait for it?

If you do that, God's plan for you was to be a couch potato. God's plan was for all of us to love him. Rather than forcing that on us (which wouldn't be real love anyways) God allowed us freewill to choose to follow his plan and love Him or not to follow his plan and suffer the consequences.

>Why do we go out and seek revenge for things that have happenned?

Because of man's sinful rebellious nature.

>Religious types will tell you that God has his reasons for
>allowing something terrible to happen, and that it fits into
>His plan, but if something good happens, it's a miracle!

Both good and bad things are in our future and have been in our past, and all of them were with God's knowledge, but not necessarily in His plan. The bad things that happen are tragedies, the good things are wonderful and some may even be miracles. All things happen with his knowledge, and when we follow his will, the things that happen are in His plan.

>That being the case, would you think God to be somewhat of a
>pr!ck for allowing children to be abused, molested, and killed?

This happens because God allows man the freewill choice to choose between good and evil.

>How about for allowing 9/11 to happen?

9/11 was obviously man's evil sinful freewill coming through. All of us sin, some of us choose to sin to a much higher degree than others. If God didn't allow this to happen, he would be interrupting our freewill and the sincerity of our choice to love and serve Him. Although God gives us freewill, that doesn’t mean he can't or doesn't direct or paths. That being said, there were many good things that came out of 9/11.

(1) What if after God allowed the hijackers to express their free will and sin, he then clouded thier thinking, directing their paths to take the 7:30 flights. What if the hijackers had all chosen the 10:30 flights and had crashed into the WTC when the towers were full, the plaza was full of tourists etc.. the casualties could have been 10 to 20 times greater.
(2) I've heard dozens of stories of people that should have been in the WTC or on one of the hijacked flights, but weren't. Was this a miracle, or was it God's will and plan for thier life?
(3) America and the world turned to God in their hour of need.

>How about the sniper in the DC area?

See above, the sniper could be shooting many more people than they are, and millions of people are praying for this person to be caught and for the victim’s families and the wounded to find peace.
>Are these truly the actions of a merciful and caring God?
No! These are the actions of sinful men who choose to disregard God's will and plan for their lives.

>What do you think? Do you believe? Did you believe once, but
>not anymore? Have you ever believed? Why? Why not?

God's plan is simple and can be summed up in six verses found in the book of Romans.
Romans 3:23 states "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 6:23 states "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 5:8 states Gut God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10: 9-11 states "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED'"

As far as Christians cramming religion down other peoples throat, No one was ever convinced into heaven.

What if I had knowledge of a program that all of you could get a brand new truck for free, but I didn't let any of you know because I was embarrassed by thinking that you'd want a free truck. After the program was over and you found out, would you be happy that I didn't tell you about the program? Well I've got the perfect plan of Salvation as described in the Bible, and I'm guilty of not telling people about it because I was embarrassed or I didn't want to be confrontational. On Judgment Day, my greatest joy will be one of you coming to me and saying, "thanks for showing me the free gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ". Likewise my greatest sorrow will be those of you that say, "Why didn't you tell me and make me listen".

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also the Greek. Romans 1:16
And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15

 

Our problem as mortals is we cannot ever understand this concept 100%. Who's god allows these idiots to slam planes into buildings and then proceed to enter heaven?, do not pass go! Who's god allows people to starve to death? Who's god allows world wide disease and pestulence? War and cruelty?

Maybe this is a concept that human beings can't handle. Who says the Buddhist is wrong when he cites reincarnation. Who says the Taosist is wrong when they live at one with the earth. Who says the Hindu is wrong when his god says it is wrong to eat anything that can run away from you. Muslims say theirs is the only true religion. So everyone else goes to hell? What is hell? Where the hell is hell? I am confused with this concept. Maybe hell is just no afterlife? Maybe this a colony for extraterrestial lifeforms?

These concepts are human beings reacting to an imagined reality. All folks have their concept of a deity except atheists, and perhaps to some extent, agnostics. Human beings refuse to accept their own mortality, and can't imagine eternity. How does one measure this. How does one accept one's own mortality. These are questions, by definition, that are very difficult, and in some cases, can't be answered.
In steps GOD to fill the void.

Whatever the real thing is, I am confident that it is not cruel, violent or malevolent. I once heard it described as follows: the universe is like a ocean of water and life is like a small amount of water that is removed from that ocean , eventually to be poured back. This would be like the concepts of finite energy, and for every action there is a reaction. Laws of physics. Then there is the Bible. To some folks, this is what works for them. I consider everything except absolutes, for this by its nature, is exclusionary.

I roll with the flow and personally kill nothing, if I can help it. I consume meat killed by others. Life itself is too precious for me to remove it from the planet. If I had to kill my own meat, I probably would be a vegetarian. Obviously I have to waste parasites, mosquitos, and any other thing that would intend to do me bodily harm, but generally I have too much resect for life to take it upon myself to extinguish it. Is this my way of practicing religion, maybe. I just don't think about it too much, I just do it. I leave all others to push their realities onto to others that may be more accepting. I do my own thing out of respect for all life, not fear of hell, or reward of a heaven. It is just my way of moving through time and space.
Pax vobiscum.



:-)