[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-Oct-02 AT 02:17 PM (EST)]Chuck,

I haven't referred to God as a pr!ck, just asked if allowing these things to happen would make him one. It's a question, not a statement.

Organized religion claims God has a purpose for everything and that he knows in advance everything that will happen. That being the case, why would a loving, caring, merciful God, as described in the Bible, allow such things to happen? It is one thing to punish, but something entirely different to torture. As I stated at first, organized religion claims anything bad as Gods will, but that only He knows the purpose, whereas if something good happens, it's a miracle. What purpose does the loss of 3000 innocent lives fulfill? What purpose do child molesters fulfill? Why would the creator allow such bad to befall so many of the innocent? Is He trying to make a point? Is it that He really isn't all knowing, all seeing, all powerful? You can't blame it on the Devil. If you allow the Devil to take an active role in what is going on, wouldn't you have to allow the same for the Almighty?

Creation instead of evolution? That would mean no dinosaurs ever existed. That would mean carbon dating must be flawed because it shows things to be in existence millions of years before man. That would mean one day, poof, there was a man, Adam. Not decendent from ape. The Bible says man was created on the 6th day. Nothing is more than 6 days older than man?

How about some things that can't be explained, like the pyramids. They are supposed to have been built using such complicated math that nobody could have cut the stones and ended up with the exact shape without some type of help. Possibly extra-terrestrial? Have you seen the giant patterns in South America and elsewhere that appear to be insects, but only from miles in the air? Some of the portions that appear to be legs are so long and perfectly straight. No one knows how these were created. They are so large that someone or something must have been in the air guiding the construction.

Why is God THE ONLY GOD? Does that mean Buddha and Allah are just stories or figments of imagination? The Jews claim Jesus was a profit and that the son of God has never been here. They are still awaiting the first coming of Christ, while Christians are looking for the second coming.

I am not trying to say their is or is not a God, but so many things can't be explained. Who is right? Is it posssible that the Bible is just a good book written by some well-meaning people years ago? Is it truly possible that God created billions of planets and stars, all 5 days before creating Adam, and chose to populate just one? Does some of this sound fishy, or what?

 

>Creation instead of evolution? That would mean no dinosaurs
>ever existed. That would mean carbon dating must be flawed
>because it shows things to be in existence millions of years
>before man. That would mean one day, poof, there was a man,
>Adam. Not decendent from ape. The Bible says man was created
>on the 6th day. Nothing is more than 6 days older than man?

Creationists believe dinosaurs existed. Carbon dating is near term (thousands of years); other methods are used for older dating and these methods are full of assumptions. I believe God created everything in 6 24-hour days about 6000 years ago. Anyone interested in the creationist beliefs should check out www.answersingenesis.com.

I don't have time to address all the questions/issues that have been brought up in this thread, nor do I have all the answers. The Bible does not give all the answers, but does give us the answers we really need: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." That is THE answer (I will be glad to explain it in more detail for those interested). All the rest falls into place after that.

INLINE SIX POWER! '95 F150 XL
300 Cubic Inches of Low RPM Truck Torque! And twin-I-beams too!
"Drive a stick young man! There'll be time for automatics when you're old and unable."

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-Oct-02 AT 02:57 PM (EST)]Just plain blind faith. No proof. That won't work for me anymore. I envy you with the ability to believe in something that you will never be able to prove while alive. I used to believe, but no more. I can't believe the God that is in the Bible would allow some of what has happened.

I can't argue the 6000 year part because I am not of sufficient scientific knowledge (as obviously portrayed with my carbon dating knowledge) but I do find it hard to believe that the oldest thing in the universe is only 6000 years old. Creationists only recently started saying they believe in dinosaurs because they can't disprove them. I had some Creationist upbringing, and many of them used to claim that the dinosaur bones were actually animal bones that became deformed from the pressure of The Great Flood. Yeah, right. Now they are changing their tune.

Some Christians believe in heaven, while others believe heaven is what you make your life while on earth. Is hell really a burning inferno? Can the Devil really make you do it? Can you really thank God for what you have without criticizing for what you haven't?

Is religion flexible with time so rules and beliefs can change to allow for changes in known history? As more and more things become known about the past, religion changes to account for it. This may not be a mainstream practice and may just have been a local thing, but shouldn't anyone that is "saved and born again" be on the same page as the rest of them. Aren't apples apples, no matter where you go?

 

>Is religion flexible with time so rules and beliefs can
>change to allow for changes in known history? As more and
>more things become known about the past, religion changes to
>account for it. This may not be a mainstream practice and
>may just have been a local thing, but shouldn't anyone that
>is "saved and born again" be on the same page as the rest of
>them. Aren't apples apples, no matter where you go?

Again, I just don't have time to address everything, but as for the flexibility of religion, I will note that I belong to a particular Lutheran group (Wisconsin Synod) that still believes as Martin Luther did 500 years ago (except we would be the first to disclaim his rantings against Jews). Many churchs that call themselves Lutheran have left the historic Lutheran faith, which I truly believe is the faith laid out in the Bible. Only one religion can be true. As far as I know all but one believes a person must earn heaven by their own works, but Christianity proclaims that Jesus earned heaven for us. That is what it is all about.

 

>>Only one religion can be true.

I think that this thinking is exactly what causes the atrocities that we have seen time and again throughout history.

Those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks feel this way to the point that they feel those who don't belive as they do aren't "human".
That is how they can justify killing inocent noncombantants. In fact they believe that they were justified in killing even those who share their base religion but who are not zealots because they believe these non-zealots are not truely commited to their god.


Also, if only one religion can be true, How do we determine which is true?
If you go by the numbers, christians are outnumbered world wide by several religions. Therefore your religion must be wrong.

As you may have guessed I feel your statement is a perfect example of how people use religion to justify their own prejudicies.

You must remember that your believes are faith based.

Faith-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. (as defined by american heritage)

So your moral highground, from which you pass your judgements on other religions, rests on a conclusion that you have drawn that is not based on any factual evidence. Only on what you have been told and what makes you feel good to believe.

 

I do want to point out that I am not trying to change anyones beliefs, force my beliefs on you, or criticize you for your beliefs. I just enjoy debating controversial subjects. We may learn things from other peoples views. I definitely don't intend to offend anyone and hope noone has taken offence.

 

Hey guys, I’m 20 years old and I know very well that I have a great deal to learn, but I kept hearing about how could God have let all these horrible things happen, or let good people die, and so forth. Sorry if I offend any one by how simply I put that. Have you ever thought about what those horrible things have done to people? Or what losing a brother or farther at a young age dose to people? I believe that every thing happens for a reason, weather it be breaking your pencil during a test or losing your best friend in a car accident when you were sitting right next to him. Just think if by breaking your pencil during a test you turned to the person next to you and asked for a pencil, and that person turned out to be your sole mate. You never know, I feel that there was a reason for every thing and that every that that happens to you is a learning experience, weather it be something horrible or wonderful and every thin in between, its made or is making you who you are today. I have believed in God my whole life, and there is only one thing that throws me a curve ball when it comes to the Christian faith, If by believing in a Christian God and following the guidelines set forth in the bible then what is going to happen to the billions of people on this planet that don’t follow the Christian beliefs? I Feel that Humans are right that there is a God, and that there is a heaven to go to after you die, but its for any one that is truly a good person, no matter how or in what you believe. I could go on but I thought I would keep my first one short, just my $.02 Ryan

 

>>>Only one religion can be true.

If more than one religion is true then it is a contradiction.

>I think that this thinking is exactly what causes the
>atrocities that we have seen time and again throughout
>history.

The belief that one religion is true and all others wrong does not lead to or justify harming others. But if someone feels they must kill those who do not believe as they do, then atrocities happen. Jesus teaches peace. Christians are to live and let live. The message of salvation in Jesus Christ is not to be forced on others.

>Also, if only one religion can be true, How do we determine
>which is true?

Good question. No answer.

>If you go by the numbers, christians are outnumbered world
>wide by several religions. Therefore your religion must be
>wrong.
>
>As you may have guessed I feel your statement is a perfect
>example of how people use religion to justify their own
>prejudicies.

I am prejudiced. I believe the Pope is the Antichrist, but I don't persecute Catholics. I belive homosexuality is wrong, but I don't persecute gays (however, I have a right that they don't push their way of life on me or my kids throught government schools). I believe putting a Ch**y engine in a Ford is a horrible thing to do, but I don't persecute those who do.


>So your moral highground, from which you pass your
>judgements on other religions, rests on a conclusion that
>you have drawn that is not based on any factual evidence.
>Only on what you have been told and what makes you feel good
>to believe.

My moral high ground is the Lord Jesus Christ. I, unfortunately, am a sinner and make no claim to being a better person than someone else. In fact there are many who are not of my faith whose works in this world put me to shame.

 

Tim,
I'm well aware that you used those terms in a question. That's what the question mark at the end was for right?

I'm saying that the wording and nature in which you used it shows contempt for God as well as others,Christians like myself, who frequent this site.

Although I cannot express the core beliefs of true Christianity in such a narrow venue, I would like to submit a couple of items:

First off, I will admit that the topic is a paradox. I can no more prove there is a God, than you can prove there is no God. Hence, the term "faith". The Bible states that"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" .

But while one person can be of a mindset to believe and another not, look at things from two purely analytical vantage points.

Choosing to believe/disbelieve in the temporal vs. the eternal.

Temporal- believing. You follow God's law as written in the Bible and model yourself after Christ. You help people whenever you can, you live a moral, upstanding life. You have a promise that you will have eternal life. You have a hope while here on earth that you'll see once again those whom you've loved so dearly and that have died again. In short, you've lost nothing.

disbeliever- you can help people, but few do. You can live a moral life, but why? When you bury those you love, it's over. And with the world just getting better everyday with crime, pollution, injustice, etc. Man, what kind of hope do you have?

Now, if there is no God:

Believer- you die. it's over. Same as the unbeliever. Nothing lost but the chance at a few unfulfilling events in an all-too-short life.

But if there IS a God:
Then you will stand before this supreme being and give an account of your actions and decisions in this life, right?

Believer- Words cannot describe it.Heaven and all it's joys for all eternity.With those you loved who also believed.

Unbeliever- Words cannot describe it. Eternal damnation because you chose to reject a free offer of salvation from a loving God who sent His Son so you wouldn't end up where you'll be.

That's the Gospel in a nutshell. I've done many series in my Sunday School class on Evolution, the existance of God, why should we believe?, etc..

But I don't think you want an answer. I think you've already decided and you're looking for debate.

In which case it brings us back to the paradox. God/no God. Faith/disbelief. There is an answer, but not on this side of the curtain.

I'll choose to believe. Even in the worst case(No God) I've not missed a thing.In the best case, I've gained it all.

Chuck

 

>> The message of salvation in Jesus Christ is not to be forced on others.<<

you need to come to Auburn and tell some people that. Every day we have religious Zelouts screaming at the top of their lungs about why we are going to hell for being in college and having fun. Passing out bibles and pestering people when they try to go to class.

I would consider that forcing Christanity upon people.

JON

 

>>Also, if only one religion can be true, How do we determine
>>which is true?

>Good question. No answer.

Yet you continue to place your faith in a religion which has no more than a 10% chance (assuming that there are only 10 religions and they are equally patronized) of being true?

BTW, what are the prerequisites for entry to heaven in your religion, ie baptism, acceptance of christ, etc.

 

If I didn't believe in everything that I couldn't understand or explain, my world would indeed be tiny. Yes Christianity is based on faith and some things have to be taken on faith. Before I am ripped a new one for saying that consider this. We do things every day that are illogical but based on faith. Have you or a loved one ever had a serious operation? You had faith that the surgeon was capable of doing the job without killing you. How many of us first ask to see his diplomas and take the time to read them line for line? How many will ask to observe him in an operation to make sure he is what he says he is? Flown in a plane lately? Did you check the pilot's credentials first?

I'm not saying faith is to be taken lightly, but in the same vein, it has been seriously questioned here as to how one could accept anything on faith alone. My answer is we do it every day. Honestly I have a harder time believing that anything so complex as man evolved from primordial ooze. From my admitted limited knowledge, no link has been made between a single celled organism to what the scientists consider to be our ancestors. There is a gap that they have asked us to accept on faith. There's that word again. It seems it all comes down to faith, whether you believe in God or not.

Same goes for extra-terrestrials who may have shaped this planet in it's younger years. It's a stretch to believe but many do. I don't knock anyone for believing this, to each his own. Where this enters into the question of God is beyond me anyway, but it was brought up.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that evil can exist in a world where there is a God? As has been said before, we have freedom of choice. People choose to do evil, just as they choose to do good. Blaming God for the evils done is just as wrong as blaming a dad whose son went on a killing spree. It just doesn't wash. Yet that argument is the single most often used reason for not believing.

People who don't want to believe will always find reasons not to do so, just as those who do believe have their reasons. Maybe they both have flimsy reasons, it's not for me to say. When it's all said and done it's an individual's choice.

Ron

 

>>>>Only one religion can be true.

False. The reason why this is so is because God is a forgiving God. One religion can be more "correct" than another.

>>If you go by the numbers, christians are outnumbered world
>>wide by several religions. Therefore your religion must be
>>wrong.

Wrong: You are appling human conditions and reasoning to God. This also go against the way the Old Testament was written. God selected the Jews as the choosen people. Not the largest domination at the time.


>I am prejudiced. I believe the Pope is the Antichrist, but
>I don't persecute Catholics.

I throw my hands up here. You are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the fact that you do not persecute Catholics because of what you believe.

>
My moral high ground is the Lord Jesus Christ. I,
>unfortunately, am a sinner and make no claim to being a
>better person than someone else. In fact there are many who
>are not of my faith whose works in this world put me to
>shame.

AMEN.

I realize I pulled quotes from different members and this is not a response directed at any one individual. As stated before this is a deep subject and I would be happy to respond to any emails regarding this subject matter.

 

ancient man created "gods" to explain things they didnt understand...Early religious leaders got such a good deal out of it they perpetuated the myth to their advantage..and it continues to this very day.

Try calculus..it is more reliable and easier to use.

 

>For those who don't believe, that is your right and your
>choice. I have no problems with that. I do have a problem
>with those who force their beliefs on others.
>
>
>
>Chuck


Chuck, i love ya but thats a bit hipocritical. i see christians trying to push their beliefs on anybody who doesnt agree with them. christians are always trying to "save" people from their own religon or beliefs and believe their god is the only and true god. the examples of this are almost endless. a few of my own personal ones:


a co-worker of mine and i were sitting next to one another at lunch reading different sections of the news paper. in the section he had there was a photo of a hindu woman "clensing " herself of her sins in a river. he turned to me and said" you know thats not gonna work, she needs jesus" to which i said "it works for her".

another one is a sign at the exit of a church positioned so only the people who go to this paticular church can see it when they exit says "you are now entering the mission feild" and under lists the passage in the bible it comes from.

im sure everyone has had someone come up to them on the street, hand you a little booklet or pamphlet of somekind and tell you to find jesus. not to mention all the billboards i see along the highway telling me id better find jesus or else.

i dont mind a healthy debate on this subject but the last thing i want to hear is a christian telling ME not to push my beliefs on them.

also, why is it that whenever a real hard pressing question is asked of a christian about their beliefs and why, the answer is always something like " well, god works in mysterious ways " ?






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