>while Hitler may not uphold current christian values, it is
>clear when reading his writings that he believed he was a
>christian, in addition he used the prevailing antisemitism
>amongst european christians to bolster his position, and
>obviously *******ized some of these believes and feelings to
>further his own agenda.

This I am unsure about since I cannot back it up, but, I was watching the History channel a while back and it showed some trends between Hitler and Mussolini (sp). What they showed were 2 seperate tapes of both leaders. I had to relay on the translation that they provided since I have no way of verifing it and I haven't seen this covered before.

"Forget this man, Christ. I am your Christ. I will save you....." My jaw hit the floor. I had never before heard that in the history books. Is it true? I would say that it does fit the ego of either man and of some others.

 

howcome no one replies to my post? lol

 

>What is was leading up to with all of that is this, the
>reason we probably have no understanding of where we came
>from is because our minds are possibly not able to
>comprehend the processes it would take to make us what we
>are today, this for me is very hard to express in words, but
>i hope my above statements have given enough explanation
>that you can understand what I'm saying.

Here's a stab at it.

You are trying very hard to approach this in a logical or human manner. I find a lot of what God does is very, very logical. Maybe methodical would be a better word. But God does not think like we do. What is important to us, is not important to him. I think our minds can comprehand it, it's just in a different area then where you are looking.

God's way is not Man's way. As has been demonstrated many times.

 

I wanted to submit a few quotes from famous people for your consideration on this subject. I used these in a Sunday School message I taught. I think you may find them interesting.

"The odds of our universe emerging out of something like the big-bang are enormous. I think clearly there must be religious implications whenever you discuss the origins of the universe. There must be religious overtones." -Stephen Hawking

Who is he? Only the premier theoretical physicist.

"the odds of our universe being formed from this explosion are one in 10 billion to the 30th power" -Roger Penrose, Oxford Mathmatician

You would have a better chance of winning the lottery one million times .....in a row, than this happening.

Are you willing to bet your eternal existence against those kinds of odds"

"A common-sense interpretation of the facts, suggests a super-intellect has monkeyed with the physics. As well as with the chemistry and biology. And there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The better you understand the facts, the greater the need for God." -Sir Fred Hoyle, leading physicist and mathmatician, Oxford.

"When you look at the complexity around us, you realize somebody had to cause it. all of nature reveals an intelligence of such superiority, that every great mind from the beginning, put together, is utterly insignificant compared to it." -Albert Einstein, physicist

"To scientists, the big-bang theory ends like a bad dream. We have scaled the mountain of ignorance, climbed to it's highest peak, reach up and over the last rock, and are greeted by a band of believers who have been there for centuries." -Robert Jastro, leading astronomer

"If we need an atheist for debate, we go to the philosophy department. There aren't any atheists in the physics department."--Robert Griffeth, mathematical genius

Some of the world's most brilliant thinkers admit the necessity of God.

The Bible says, "Only the fool has said in his heart 'there is no God'"

Chuck

 

An interesting book to read is a sci-fi novel called calculating god, it is about 2 alien races that come to earth with scientific proof of god, it has a lot of facts in it, albeit a fictional novel.....It changed my life and made me think real long and hard.......

 

ok guys I've been whaching this thread since it was posted and have had an inward strugle as to post or not. Well GOD won so here is a small testamony.

First Jesus is my Lord, Savior, king, Brother, and my Father all rolled into one the only thing I can compare him to on earth is my family asto when he chasens me and rewords me it's no different than your family does for you or you do for your family. He loves us enough to die the most horable death on earth for us and I don just mean the cross look at what he when though be for he was crucified.
all he asks in return is for us to believe that he died for our sins and rose from the dead into the arms of GOD our father. its no different than at a birthday or chrismas you get a box all raped up but untill you recieve it and accept it it isnt yours theres no strings atached just faith that it's givin to you.

Second he has done more for me and in me in the last three years than I ever did for myself. as to seing his excistanse I have traveld to every continental state and cannada, as a truck driver and have seen many things that we take for granted and never think about. But when me and my wife the second greatest gift God ever gave me, whent on our honnymoon we whent to a salt water aquium (sp) and if you dont believe in desighn I sugest you go to one it is an amazing and fun thing to do but it realy opend my eyes to GOD's greatness and desighn. An acident could not have caused the beauty of this world behind every design there is a desighner..

well thats the end of my .21/2 cents and may peace be with you all!!!
P.S. please excuse my spelling and grammer. (ou lack the of rather LOL)

 

Truckfreak69, your post was very interesting. I agree that there are somethings that we as humans simply can not comprehend. This is where are faith comes in. Maybe we can't figure certain things out like creation, but we trust in God and His Word.


As for sinners getting into Heaven. First off, who are we to judge who will go where. It is only God's job to judge as He is perfect and fair and we are not. Second, I truly believe that God loves us so much that he wants us all to end up in Heaven. Obviously how we live our lives will dictate this. I also believe that God is very compassionate and understanding. Whether you are Catholic, Buddhist, whatever, IMO God created and loves you. If you live a good moral life (as just about all religions teach), you can get into heaven. Another part of the eqution that I as a Catholic believe is Purgatory. If people just went directly to Heaven or Hell when they died, it would not be fair as we all live our lives differently. I believe that on judgement day, God will send us to Hell (last resort) or Purgatory (very few go directly to Heaven-mainly martyrs). The length of time you stay in Purgatory depends on how you lived your life and the amount of suffering for your sins you endured on earth.

Just because a Catholic goes and rapes or kills someone then confesses doesn't mean he's off the hook. He has been forgiven for his sins, but God knows if he's REALLY sorry for what he did. And regardless he will have to suffer to repent for these sins.

My second installment of $.02

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-Oct-02 AT 11:05 PM (EST)]As I look over these posts one thing is lacking. It is easy to say it is faith, forgiveness, etc. But there is one thing more.

That is love. Love is the most important gift there is. It is what God showers upon us.

Without love you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Without love you cannot serve God. You can mimic the actions and the words but without love it is evil.

If you love your fellow man (he may be a dip), you will not want to cause harm to him. Neither will you want him to sin and have him risk his soul because you slept with his wife and as a result he shoots you dead. Just an example. Because you love your fellow man, you will not steal from him. Because you know the hardship that it will cause for him and the hardness in his heart that will result.

Ok, I can hear it now. What about the Hitlers and the SH of the world? They are evil. They do have a chance at salvation but when they must ceast and desist, and don't. Then you have a obligation to protect your family. Some would say to turn the other cheek. Christ didn't back down from anyone. He was very confrontionial and challenged the way people thought. It was when he submitted to his Father's will that he was crucified. And he did that because he loved his Father and all of us.

Hopefully, I didn't go too deep there.

 

>As I look over these posts one thing is lacking. It is easy
>to say it is faith, forgiveness, etc. But there is one thing
>more.
>
>That is love. Love is the most important gift there is. It
>is what God showers upon us.

Well said Dan. Sometimes we overlook what should be most obvious.
Thanks for not letting that happen in this thread.

Ron

 

AMEN to that Dan you are a 120% correct.

ya'll will have to forgive me for my typoes in my last post I get a lot shaky when I think of the Love that GOD has for us especialy when aplied to life and our families. He is all forgiving and it makes me wish I hadn't harbord hatred the way I did in the past, don't get me rong I still get mad now and again but I let it go and ask God for his grace and murcy. It makes life so much more fun and enjoyable.

Peace and Love to ALL !!!

 

About Hiltler, Hitler grew up in the streets in Austria, yes he was homeless. Durring this time the Jews were basicly controlling Germany's wealth, about the same way our gov is controlled by certain companys today. I guess that didn't make him like the Jews too well and campained to get rid of them. And when the Catholic church spoke up to him he began to get rid of them along with all other opposition. Doesn't sound to Christanly to me. Everyone knows that he was mentaly insane, and he used religion and many other things to get people to follow him.

About dreams, the subcontious or whatever, I like to use the accronem KISS, "keep it simple, stupid". I'm not saying your stupid, don't get me wrong. I think reading Frued or trying to look at life in a different manner is a waste of time. Did not Solomon do this? The wisest man on earth and through his research on the meaning of life he came up that there is no meaning to life except through God. Sure it's from the Bible, but did Freud ever come to a conclusion with whatever he was searching for? I don't think so, just went in circles. We cannot even get close to comprehending God, he made us like that so we wouldn't have to worry like the way we do these days. We were wired that there is a God, the only problem is the fact that we don't listen to ourselfs deep down. I was involved with a girl(I regret ever knowing her) and she reffered to this guy I hung out with as my best friend, I beleived her and although shoved all my true feeling deep down to the piont where I couldn't here it. It wasn't untill two months after she left me(wish I had left her) that I realized that I can not stand being around this guy and realized that that whole relationship was a bunch of crap. I was just too caught up in the mess that we call life today to sit back and think about what life really is. The more complicated things get the farther they are from reality. Deep down inside everyone is a peice of God. We can only hear Him if we listen, and the further back we put Him the harder it will be to hear Him.

 

>I can believe Jesus existed and that he was a profit and a
>good man without believing he was the son of God.
>


You can tell a true prophet from a false prophet by whether or not their prophecy.....their declaration of something to come or prediction......comes true. Jesus had many prophecies, one of which was that he would rise from the dead in three days.....which he did.

Jesus declared himself to be the son of God. Jesus declared himself to BE God......God incarnate or God in flesh. Jesus also declared himself to be the only mediator between God and man.....no one comes to the Father except through him and him alone.

If you believe Jesus was a prophet, I assume you believe he was a true prophet and not a false prophet (for after all, can a false prophet be a "good man"?). Since Jesus rose from the dead and thus fulfilled that particular self-prophecy, and since you believe Jesus was a true prophet, to maintain consistency it must logically follow that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that he will return to gather those who believe in him....as he prophesied. After all, what good man and true prophet would declare such things if they were lies?

Think about it.

 

Officially, I am a United Methodist, I attend church at a UMC and I help lead the Jr. Hi. Youth Group sunday nights there. Unofficially though, I don't know if my beliefs actually fall into any religion. I know they sure aint UM, though. What follows is a brief run down of "Royce's Religion" and my take on religion in general.

1. I'm not a fan of the "luvey-dovey, super nice Jesus". In my opinion, here is a man that did what he wanted, when he wanted, and took no crap from anyone. IMO, he's what kids nowadays might call a "Bad ****". This is the son of God, to be worshiped and especially respected.

2. I have my beliefs, you have yours. That's great. I don't care until you try to harm me or get on my case for my beliefs.

3. Everybody is a child of God. Managers, majorities, minorities, slaves, gangsters, homosexuals, prisoners, rednecks, businessmen, everybody. I may be supposed to love everyone, but that doesn't mean I need to approach everyone the same way.

4. God got this whole party started, and when it started to bog down, he got it movin' again. That's why evolution looks like swiss cheese. There were times when God had to step in.

5. I don't think I'm going to hell for thinking what comes naturally when a scantilly clad girl walks by. If God really thought this was bad, he wouldn't have made us this way. I'm more of the belief that if you're truly good of heart, you've a good chance of getting a ticket to heaven.

6. God created everything to have a spirit, and as such everything must be respected, lest you bring bad karma upon yourself. This is what makes the outdoors so great. There is so much energy, and so much of it positive. From the stone by your foot to the mountain lion, all have a strong, usually positive, spirit.

Well, those are the main points I can think of. It's kind of a Native American/Eastern/protestant/relaxed religion, but it works for me. Maybe I should start a church...

The Law
1989 F-250 HD 4x4
460, C6, BW 13-56, Sterling 10.25" (4.10:1), Dana 44 HD (4.09:1), twin K&N's, no muffler, stock lo-flo cat, Bosch Platinum Plugs (0.060") MSD 6A and TFI Blaster Coil

 

>As I look over these posts one thing is lacking. It is easy
>to say it is faith, forgiveness, etc. But there is one thing
>more.
>
>That is love. Love is the most important gift there is. It
>is what God showers upon us.
>
Excellent Point! Love is why Jesus died to save us and we having received the gift of salvation are to spread that love to others. If faith is real it will result in actions of love. These are not good works that get us into heaven but a response to the love we received.

 

I have read to posts here that confused me just a lot both stated that they believed basicaly or implied that they believed that the bible was the word of GOD. but they spoke of two man made thearies that of which I dunt understand. One was "I as a Catholic believe in Purgatory" ok and the other one is "lest you bring bad karma upon yourself" ok again my question is this where in the word of GOD is this I'm not going to say that it isn't there cause I dont pretend to know it all, but I will say this were is it in The King James Version.
not NIV or NLB or anthing else the reason I say this is in the KJV you can take text all the way back to it's true meaning beit Hebrw of Greek.

The reason I ask this is because 1. I have lived the so called Karma life of witchcraft almost to the point of satanism and Jesus deliverd me from this sadistic way of life basicaly if it was there I did it do I regret this past life? No because it makes me who I am in Christ
Jesus. 2. I have heard of this Purgatory aspect from only the catholic church but the only thing I got from it was it was a way for the catholic chruch to make money. I was told by a cotholic priest that if a family member has died then they have gone to purgatory and if I waould pay the catholic church they would pray to GOD for there relise into heaven. Dont know if this is what you believe or not and I hope not but my Question is not what but where you believe. I for one believe in JESUS CHRIST and every word of the Bible as it is writen wether I like wat it says or not GOD is tru and so is his word.

hope this doesnt start a slapathon but I had to ask on these two topics again please excuse the poor grammer and spelling.

May Peace be with you all...

And buy the way this is a great post and has thusfar been handled in a great manner lets keep it goin.