Believe what you want!!! Every knee shall bow!!

`82 F-250 Custom** 4x4 ** 351W ** 39.5--15x16.5** SS- TSL`s ** 6" Lift ** Granny 4-speed**** If you can`t run with the BIG DOGS , stay on the porch!!!

 

>Creation instead of evolution? That would mean no dinosaurs
>ever existed. That would mean carbon dating must be flawed
>because it shows things to be in existence millions of years
>before man. That would mean one day, poof, there was a man,
>Adam. Not decendent from ape. The Bible says man was created
>on the 6th day. Nothing is more than 6 days older than man?

Well, carbon dating is flawed, there are are many factors that can make this incorrect. Experiments are flawed too, have you ever been to chemistry? Basically you do the experiment till you get what seems right(to the text book). I believe dinosaurs exsisted not too long ago. I don't remember the name of it but there is a famous story of that night that "slayed a dragon," along with so many other fairy tails of dragons. Notice we had to ban hunting bears to keep them from becoming exstinct. And doo doo birds are pretty strange to me, is I was taught they they were a prehistoric bird when I was little, I would have believed them. About fossils, somewhere in Texas there is mineral spring where the plants growing around it are sometimes covered in a mineral like coating on them that if you break them the plant can be found on the inside, still green and alive.

About evolution, I can hardly believe that. If we are adapting or evolving into better people, then how come we are always sick. Sure we live longer, but that's only because we don't have half the deadly deseases that used to be around, and most of our medicine we have just keeps our body from giving out. Some people have more chromosomes than normal, all of them are handicapped. They say bugs and insects evolve everyday, if you look closer you'll notice that what really happens is that the strong survive and the weaker genes are flushed out.

Big bang, o' please, since when has anyone dropped a bomb on something and causes something to come out of it. It's so flawed that they have changed the story now to that there was a lot of anti-matter at first, good idea since the existance of anti-matter is a theory. But they may have to change that soon because subposivly someone has actually made some anti-matter, poor guys.

Now, I don't know how old the world is, but I do beleive that it is around 10,000 years old, give or take a few. Science can not prove it and can not disprove it, but they have not to this day disproved anything in the Bible. For instance, recently scientist have discovered evidence that there was a major shift in the seasons, kind of makes me think about that battle where the leader of the Isralites asked God to keep the sun from going down till the battle was over(sorry, I'm the worst person at names).


>Why is God THE ONLY GOD? Does that mean Buddha and Allah are
>just stories or figments of imagination? The Jews claim
>Jesus was a profit and that the son of God has never been
>here. They are still awaiting the first coming of Christ,
>while Christians are looking for the second coming.

I do beleive in the One true God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Blind faith? I would hardly call it that, everthing in my life have has happened for a reason, sooner or later I may find out why, and most of the time I do. As to the September 11th attacks, Revelations in the Bible shows the world in the end where the Christians are significantly seperate from the rest of the world, I believe that we are stepping up to this time and the events now are creatomg a bigger gap between those who are strong followers of Christ and those who are in question, fakers, week, or whatever. Noticed that God is now not becoming a good guy in the eyes of most, sooner or later Christains will be a minority and will be persecuted, one reason is because the stronger ones in faith will tell you straight out "You are going to hell!" instead of, "Well it's ok if you beleive that, all of are gods work." Ha! If "all out gods worked" then wouldn't we all be living in a happy place where we could all get along? And why does ala's kids live in the chosen land, where all they have is sand and war.

About these guys who force religion on others, I don't know where they get the junk they do. I met a guy who told me I was going to burn in hell for listening to music, he was holding a Bible and told me of how Satan played music for God in heaven and God banishing Satan and music from heaven. Said it's in the Bible. Just because you carry a Bible doesn't mean you know what's going on inside of it. In fact, I will be honest, I'm not perfect and I stray from God all the time(feel misrable everytime)but when I'm in tune with Him the Bible makes alot more sence than just reading it. These guys are evidently what you could call "deceivers."

I'm kind of anxious and scarred to see what will come in the near future, seems like the second coming is all coming out in front of our faces and we may be the ones to see it.

Well, hope some of this babbling makes sence, there's just so much to say about this subject.

 

>Creationists only recently started saying they believe in dinosaurs because they can't disprove them.

True Creationists have always stood by the dinosaur. In fact, dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible.

>Is hell really a burning inferno?

Ever lost a loved one? Remember the first time your heart got broken? Remember the pain in your heart? The burning? Yes? Good, multiply that by 1,000. Welcome to Hell.

>Can you really thank God for what you have without criticizing for what you haven't?

If you're not a selfish *******.

>As more and more things become known about the past, religion changes to account for it.

Please provide proof to this statement, as I am not sure what you mean.

>This may not be a mainstream practice and may just have been a local thing, but shouldn't anyone that is "saved and born again" be on the same page as the rest of them. Aren't apples apples, no matter where you go?

Funny thing about religion versus a relationship.......Once man gets into it, it gets all screwed up as stated above....

Yes, born again believers should be on the same page. But the focus should be our relationship with God. Sometimes how we celebrate, teach others & practice our beliefs tend to differ just as my marriage to my wife is different that your marriage (If you are.). Same thing, right? We're both married. How come my relationship with my wife is different than yours?

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-Oct-02 AT 00:52 AM (EST)]>I'm kind of anxious and scarred to see what will come in the near future, seems like the second coming is all coming out in front of our faces and we may be the ones to see it.


I have to agree with you on this. The state of affairs in the world shows me that God is trying to tell us something. I wonder how long things can continue?

I believe in God and have a deep faith. I don't push it on people but will talk about it if they are open to listening.

About the priests, it was a very small percentage that committed this terrible act. And remember that priests are human just like you and I meaning they also sin. Why is the church being persicuted? The church really means all the believers. We do not worship the priest, we worship God. Some officals in the church handled things wrong and there were cover-ups, but these were all the doings of people. Certainly the liberal media loved blowing it up, too.


This is a very deep thread. Only at FTE could it be done in such responsible manner. It's late and I'm too tired to think of anything else tonight. Take care and God Bless

 

Very good topic and very interesting. Yes, I believe there is a God. I've had several events in my life that have reminded me God is there. As for the evil things that happen, there is somebody else called the Devil. As previously stated, man has free will, weather you believe in God or are confused by the devil is up to you. Also, our pastor has been giving some very good sermons lately on the Rapture. There is something called the Seven Seals that tell of what will happen on earth before Christ returns. I'll admit I haven't studied the Bible or had theology classes (which sound very interesting) so what I've learned has been from going to church.

Now, as for creation vs. evolution, have the people who believe in eveolution studied creation. I know some of you have. If I remember correctly science can't prove either one. I had a great science teacher in highschool that told us the Bible is a great history book. She said that science quite often proves what is in the Bible. Science has several flaws. How often has the scientific laws changed, such as the sun revolving around earth for instance. Given a same time period, how much has beliefs in the scientific world changed compared to the beliefs of the Christianity religion?

I don't believe in going out and forcing your beliefs on people. I do believe in engaging in discussions such as this and mabye people will change their minds.

 

The question: "God? Really?"
The answer: Yes!

Many, if not most people say they believe in God. The trouble is, belief in God does not really settle anything. Satan and his demons believe there is a God. It says in the book of James, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." A more challenging question and a question due to spark a more contentious debate would be "Who is Jesus?"

A thorough investigation of the person of Jesus would take much more time than I can give the subject in just a few paragraphs. However, most of us know some things about Jesus and, from this knowledge each person must ultimately make one of three decisions:

1. Jesus is a liar.
2. Jesus is a lunatic.
3. Jesus is Lord.

Most people will agree that Jesus was a fine honorable man who did much good. Most will agree that he was a moral teacher and some will agree that he was a prophet. However, Jesus claimed much more....he not only claimed to KNOW God.......he claimed to BE God (see the book of John). He also claimed, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) These are definite and exclusive claims. If Jesus is not who he claims to be, then he is a liar. However, would a fine honorable man...a moral teacher...tell such a bold-faced lie? You can't have it both ways....either he was a fine honorable moral teacher telling the truth or he was a liar telling the biggest lie in history.

Now Jesus could have been a deceived lunatic. But my question is, why would his disciples and others have allowed themselves to be tortured and killed for a deceived lunatic.....especially after he had been crucified?

The third choice, and the choice I have made, is that Jesus is who he claimed to be........he IS Lord. And that's the decision that Christians--believers in Jesus Christ--choose to make. A decision of faith, but one founded on a process of weighing the evidence and coming to a logical conclusion.

So, my question to add to the mix: Jesus--Liar, lunatic or Lord? He has to be one of those three choices.

 

I am not going to debate the existence or lack therof of God.

However I am going to do a brief synopsis of major events in my life and my beliefs about ehy these have happened.


My father was a very mentally abusive man. He never hit me or beat me. He however berated me constant ly calling me idiot child among other things. Always pushed me to be better then when I would inevitably not meet his expectations he would belittle me.

Needless to say I had a very long childhood that I did not really care for.

I believe this has hardened me to some things but at the same time I find myself more caring of others and not wanting others to feel as I did as a child.

Then there is a very major event in my life that to this day I cannot truly explain as anything other than a "Guardian Angel"

My firned, his mother and I were driving the 12 miles into town so I could pick up my car at the brake shop so I could drive to college the next day to pay my fees for the semester. Since my friend and I were going to the same school, me for my third year and he for his first, we were both overly excited and not completely focused on the days tasks. A mentally retarded man pulled out in front of us and since it had recently started raining, my friend was driving below the speed limit and we hydroplaned into the other car's right front fender and then proceeded to spin away from the initial impact towards a grocery store at the side of the road.

We hit a pothole and the car was kicked into a reversed spin from the previous one and the car stops on the other side of the car we collided with blocking both lanes of the 2 lane highway. then the car we were in moves forwards until it is out of the oncoming traffic and safely in the parking lot of the store.

Now for the part I cannot explain logically.

Our cars front wheels were not touching the pavement. The car was resting on the frame. And since the car was a front wheel drive vehicle there is no way for the drive wheels to pus it forward. The drivers side tire was actually on top of the engine and the passenger side tire was folded backwards and wedged in the tire well.

The car did move forward however as evidenced by the scape pattern left on the road.


Now after this incenent I was forced to quit school due to severe knee injuries. (I was a music Education MAjor and marching is part of this major). I spent a year looking for work before I decided to join the Navy.

In the Navy my Papaw (Grandfather to those who don't know) died and I did not find out this until two weeks after he was buried. I lost it and went into a major crying, self destructive fit. In the navy when you are dropped and excercised until you can't move it is called cycling. Well I cycled myself until I collapsed. Then I promptly got up and resumed my routine until I could get out of there. I dedicated my life to doing him proud during my stay at boot camp. I also read the bible every night, not so much in faith but to find answers to why my life had been the way it had. I found not immediate answers.

Upon graduation form boot I went through my numerous schools and such until such a time as my first sea duty screening which my knees belw any chance of me passing. I was put out of the navy 7 months later. Instead of returning home I chose to stay in Virginia for a while for one reason.

I had been living with a man and his wife as well as another friend for about 6 months and during the time with them I began to see changes occuring in her hisband. He became progressively more violent and threatening as time went on towards her. He pulled a gun on me once aand hit her on more than one occasion. I will not lie to you, at this point I had grown very protective of this woman. I chose to stay to protect her from him.

Well to make an already overly long story as short as I can, She finally decided to divorce him after trying to use the bible as a reason he couldn't be divorced. (Claimed that the bible states that divorce is a sin among other things.) and I carried her with me to NC to begin a new life. We are currently engaged to be married although we have not set a date.

Now for the last little tidbit. I am still in NC while she is in Washington State. We ran into finacial troubles after quitting our jobs at a telephone center. We were forced to separate to ease the burden on our parents with whom we are currently living. This has gone on for over a year.

Now for my observasions. During my entire life I have felt that something has been uiding me to the people that I love and cherish. I have always felt compelled to help others and ignore the consequences to myself. I first realized this shortly after my car wreck and really negan to look at things differently. I realised that I had almost died. (Head hit windshield so hard as to nearly put me through it yet no injury other than a minor cut on my scalp.)
And from that day forward I have felt like it has been my duty to help others in bad situations.

I know this is a very long winded ramble, but my point is this. I still to this day do not truly know what I believe in. I believe that something or someone guides our way but I am not sure what or who. I used to go to the Church of Christ and was even Baptised(SP?) Yet I grew disenchanted with a church where the preacher would say smoking and drinking and pornagraphy were sins yet after service he would go out to his car and light a smoke, get his bottle of JD out of the car and take a swig and try to hide his latest issue of hustler out of view of the churchgoers. I felt that I could not trust such a hypocritical group.

Basically, believe what you believe and live you life. In the end we will all see who is right and who is wrong and probably all be very surprised at the true answer. Until then.........


Drive your Ford with who or whatever as you co-pilot and pray that they allow fords into the afterlife whatever that may be.

 

<snip>
>About these guys who force religion on others, I don't know
>where they get the junk they do. I met a guy who told me I
>was going to burn in hell for listening to music, he was
>holding a Bible and told me of how Satan played music for
>God in heaven and God banishing Satan and music from heaven.
<snip>
Yup. He was listening to Black Sabbath and Judas Priest too loud up in his room.

 

>>>>>Only one religion can be true.
>
>False. The reason why this is so is because God is a
>forgiving God. One religion can be more "correct" than
>another.

The way I see it one religion says you are saved by grace through faith. Another says you are saved by works. If both are true then there is a contradiction. One "Lutheran" church body teaches that God created through the process of evolution, but my church teaches that God created in six days and that evolution is a lie of the Devil. In this case, one is not more correct than the other--one is right and one is wrong.

>>I am prejudiced. I believe the Pope is the Antichrist, but
>>I don't persecute Catholics.
>
>I throw my hands up here. You are entitled to your opinion
>and I appreciate the fact that you do not persecute
>Catholics because of what you believe.

Dan, you are kind. Actually I am suprised someone didn't try to fry me on this statement (hmmm, there is a message in my FTE mailbox this morning, which is a rare occurance. Maybe hate mail from somebody--haven't looked yet). I should note that the word prejudice is a poor choice in my response because what I meant and was trying to show is that while I have strong beliefs, they do not lead me to treat anyone poorly. This particular belief is not one I normally toss out in conversation, but in this case we are in a debate, hard lines are being drawn, and hopefully nobody was offended.
>>
>My moral high ground is the Lord Jesus Christ. I,
>>unfortunately, am a sinner and make no claim to being a
>>better person than someone else. In fact there are many who
>>are not of my faith whose works in this world put me to
>>shame.
>
>AMEN.

This is the bottom line, the heart of Christianity, and as can be seen from the above, true Christians are united in Christ, in spite of their doctrinal differences. Those who have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal savior from sin have received the forgiveness that Jesus won for all people when he died on the cross. Everyone's sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ, but if one doesn't receive this gift it does them no good. The true church is a spiritual church of those believers, wherever they are. They are scattered all over the world, some in Lutheran churches, some in Baptist churches, some in Catholic churches, and elsewhere.

 

>>>Also, if only one religion can be true, How do we determine
>>>which is true?
>
>>Good question. No answer.
>
>Yet you continue to place your faith in a religion which has
>no more than a 10% chance (assuming that there are only 10
>religions and they are equally patronized) of being true?

I believe that God put faith in my heart through the preaching of His Word. Once that faith took hold (and it was resisted in the past as I was not a Christian until I was in my later 20s) I realized what I had and began to study the Bible and other religions. The faith I had made sense in light of the Bible and my readings of other religions. I studied the Bible and doctrine intensely for 10 years (unfortunately forgot much by now) and am firmly convinced that the Bible is the Word of God. One has to be very careful that they not mis-understand the Bible and that is where the historic Lutheran church is so handy--those folks tore the Bible apart, went through every bit, and organized all the doctrines, making sure they did not support any doctrines that contradicted the Bible.


>BTW, what are the prerequisites for entry to heaven in your
>religion, ie baptism, acceptance of christ, etc.

The only thing that damns is unbelief. Jesus came and, acting as our substitute, lived a perfect (sinless, that is) life of obedience to God in our place, took all our sins upon himself, and suffered and died for our sins to pay the eternal price so we could be free. If you believe this, you have a home in heaven, if not then you are damned.

 

>Those who have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal savior from >sin have received the forgiveness that Jesus won for all people when >he died on the cross. Everyone's sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ, >but if one doesn't receive this gift it does them no good.

see this is where I have a problem.
You say you have a forgiving, tolerant, intelligent god. I would think that any god with those qualities would forgive an otherwise just and moral person that, for whatever reason, has not accepted him in their life by name- or perhaps by the wrong name.

In your version, if a person leads the most selfless life possible and commits no "sins" (obviously impossible- but just for the sake of argument) he is rejected at the gates of heaven only because he hadn't choosen christianity.
At the same time, your pedophile preist who has molested countless children, ruining what should be the most innocent part of their lives and leaving scars that will never heal, is readily accepted into heaven, with god turning a blind eye to all of his sin, only because he has accepted JC.


lets see, do i want to spend eternity in "heaven" with those who have openly sinned expecting to be absolved by their maker or do I spend an eternity in "hell" with the Taoist, Buddist, Hidus, etc who have not accepted Jesus.

 

>>Those who have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal savior from >sin have received the forgiveness that Jesus won for all people when >he died on the cross. Everyone's sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ, >but if one doesn't receive this gift it does them no good.
>
>see this is where I have a problem.
>You say you have a forgiving, tolerant, intelligent god. I
>would think that any god with those qualities would forgive
>an otherwise just and moral person that, for whatever
>reason, has not accepted him in their life by name- or
>perhaps by the wrong name.

I don't believe I said God was tolerant. Certainly he is intollerant of sin. According to the bible there is no such thing as an "otherwise just and moral person." You either are perfect or not, and the only on who is perfect is God. He has given us salvation for free (free to us), but at a terrible price of the death of Jesus Christ (who incidentally lives because being sinless, death could not hold him).

>In your version, if a person leads the most selfless life
>possible and commits no "sins" (obviously impossible- but
>just for the sake of argument) he is rejected at the gates
>of heaven only because he hadn't choosen christianity.

Pretty much, except that nobody can choose Christianity. Nobody wants to become a Christian. If you are a Christian, it is by the grace of God, if you are not it is your own fault. Many reject Him. I did not choose to become a Christian, but being one and having lived the previous 27 years as an agnostic. I am glad God reached out to me and would never want to go back.

>At the same time, your pedophile preist who has molested
>countless children, ruining what should be the most innocent
>part of their lives and leaving scars that will never heal,
>is readily accepted into heaven, with god turning a blind
>eye to all of his sin, only because he has accepted JC.
>
I am sure the Lutheran church has its pedophile pastors, perhaps there have even been some in the Wisconsin Synod (don't know). If they repent of their evil deeds they can go to heaven. It's not that repentance is a work, but true faith cannot coexist with gross unrepentant sins (or with any wilfully unrepentant sins for that matter). Now I suppose you will ask me about the pygmies in Africa who never heard of Jesus. Well, God commanded his church to go into all the world with the gospel and there are many missionaries doing just that.

>
>lets see, do i want to spend eternity in "heaven" with those
>who have openly sinned expecting to be absolved by their
>maker or do I spend an eternity in "hell" with the Taoist,
>Buddist, Hidus, etc who have not accepted Jesus.

You also get to meet Adolph Hitler, Nero, Attila the Hun, and a whole bunch of other nasty fellows. But don't worry, I doubt they will have time to pester you since they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth alongside you, crying out for even a drop of water to wet their tongues.

Anyway, that is how I see it according to the Bible and you are free to believe as you wish.

INLINE SIX POWER! '95 F150 XL
300 Cubic Inches of Low RPM Truck Torque! And twin-I-beams too!
"Drive a stick young man! There'll be time for automatics when you're old and unable."

 

>You also get to meet Adolph Hitler, Nero, Attila the Hun, and a >whole bunch of other nasty fellows. But don't worry, I doubt they >will have time to pester you since they will be weeping and gnashing >their teeth alongside you, crying out for even a drop of water to >wet their tongues.

I got news for you, Hitler was a christian, so by your arguement, as long as he was repentant you will be dining with him in heaven.

 

A few more thoughts (I ask your indulgence...)
For those of you who believe: there is no God, and use as part of your justification the fact that there is so much evil in the world, and evolution is how we got here, I will assume you are correct. Here is what I can now believe......(but don't..)

"Screw you and your thoughts on evil. There is no God. There is no evil. There is no such thing as good and evil, whatever is, is. You think 9-11 was bad? You think the DC Sniper is bad? You think child molesters and murders are bad. Poppy-****. It's all evolution. You know, survival of the fittest. What, do you think we all evolved into where we are without our "ancestors" killing off each other so that the strong survive and weak die out? That's what's happening now - evolution. Ultimately the strong will survive and those who happen to get killed in the mean time, well what's the big deal? There is no God or anything like that, we are just continuing the process of evolution. Besides, we are no more important than any other rat, cockroach, or vermin running around the world. We just took different paths along the way in evolution. We are just another cog in the wheel of getting to wherever evolution is headed. So don't sweat all the "too much evil in the world" thing. Nothing's evil, it's just evolution at work."

Now, do I believe ANY of this ??? No. But I DO believe IF you truly believe there is no God and evolution explains our existance, then this is an absolutely, 100% viable argument. And, I don't believe anybody here - who has said they do not believe in God, and do believe in evolution - would hold the views I just expressed.

There is a God and too many people try to deny it by imposing THEIR view on they way things should be (i.e. playing God themselves) and using the shortcomings of mankind to find fault with God (blame God for what man does).

I have no desire to offend and/or pick a fight. This is one of the better discussions I have seen on the subject in quite a while. I just ask that those who appear to have a great deal of animosity towards people of faith, critically examine their own faith (the faith there is no God).

thanks guys,
Brian A

 

I can agree that there has to be some higher being, but not necessarily the God that the Bible talks about.

One claim was made that there has to be a God because something cannot come from nothing. They claim God has to be, and He CREATED everything from nothing. So, let's assume that to be true. What did He create everything from, what was here before He created everything, and what created God? Did God come from nothing?

To believe in something that has a track record is not faith. The first patient ever to be operated on had to have faith, because that was something never tried, providing he was conscious and could make his own decisions. If he was unconscious from a battle wound of some type, the doctor would have done what he thought best. I don't know about the first operation ever performed, so please don't start criticizing that. I am just trying to give an example here. You can say you have faith about everything that is, but most of those things are tried and true, tested and proven.

I can believe Jesus existed and that he was a profit and a good man without believing he was the son of God.

I can believe the Bible to be a historical account of things that happenned. Some things that happenned may have been impossible to explain at the time, so they may have been described as miraculous.

If you are to take the Bible exactly as written, then you believe Revelations and the prophecies about giant scorpions shooting out of the earth, massive armored horses breathing fire, and huge locusts flying overhead. Some think parts of the Bible were written by prophets that had visions of the future, and that they saw missiles instead of scorpions, tanks instead of firebreathing horses, and helicopters instead of locusts. After all, how would you describe a missile or helicopter if you saw one 2-3000 years ago?

Can a person that gets drunk, has premarital sex, smokes, uses drugs, swears, lies, and cheats on income taxes, go to heaven just because he believes in God? Can a Catholic go out and rape and murder someone, than show up for confession and be forgiven and go to heaven? Doesn't something seem a little off there?