Okay, ladies, you've slipped from Boys, and may be in danger of demotion to maggots, and are in severe need of a drop-n-20.

Heretic says: If they are equipped with nearly identical gearing, the 6 speeds. The cummins will outrun the PSD. Even with its gearing advantage. Why? Because the cummins makes more hp at all rpms below 2900.
IRONMAN: Heretic, I can see the light bulb has not been energized in your world yet. Listen, I don't care WHAT hp that engine has, the transmission that has been slapped to it's rear IS THE FINAL DECISION MAKER. If that trany & rear-axle cuts the engine's 2500 rpm down by a factor of 2.5 to 1000 rpm at the wheels .... THAT's your speed, son. 100 HP or 500 HP ... doesn't matter. Just cause you have more HP, doesn't mean they geared it to use it. The ONLY difference between a 100HP and a 500HP in this scenario is the weight limit. But as long as both are pulling below the weight limit of the smaller engine ... the stronger engine will NOT go any faster. My PSD will tow 20,000 combined weight. What is it for the new 600? Whatever it is, it ain't much different. Meanwhile the PSD is simple geared to go faster. Would you like me to do the math for each and every gear?


Heretic: BTW. Your leaving something out of your gearing comparison. The torque at the wheels.
IRONMAN: I just addressed that above. In addition, Ford has pulled another wool-over-dodges-eyes. Cummins torque falls off after 2900. The PSD is going along at 3300, which came out to about 1242-1066 rpm faster, which is 176 rpm faster ... BUT ... the PSD is just reaching it's peak HP and has a flat-line torque still up there. This means that the PSD is not only feeding Dodge dust .... but that it is still pulling it's 20,000 lbs at 176 rpm faster on the wheels. To stay at speed the Dodge would need 1242 rpm at the rear wheels too. That means stepping on the gas and speeding up to 3378 rpms. WHat is the HP and torque of the Cummins at 3378 rpm? Less than what that PSD is putting out, I can tell you that much. It also means that Cummins ain't gonna be yanking 20,000 lbs either. It may still be doing okay at 3378 engine rpm, but I can tell you for a FACT that my older 5.9 Cummins does NOT like 3378 rpms (and I've got a 4.10 rear too, so I don't think I can even get it up there anyway). So ... I think I've addressed the torque at the wheels. Any questions?

DieselDonor: The hammer illustration seems like it matches with your explanation as well, hitting a ball from the top. Is there more stress on the cylinders of a V-8 due to the angular compression?
Ironman: Thanks, Diesel. It took me awhile to think of that hammer analogy, too. That paragraph gave some of the advantages of an inline. Less lateral cylinder stress is one. A V engine has all sorts of lateral stresses. The "compression" isn't angular (I'm not actually sure what you mean by that) but I think I understand what you mean, and I just said "yes". But ... ALL things have two lists: advantages and disadvantages. The V has more lateral stresses ... but it also cancels out other ones better, too. The net inertia off center mass for a V is less, as caused by the firing strokes. With an inline it is the greatest (hit the ball head on, it goes the furthest vs. hit the ball from two sides, and it still moves, but not as far because the two sideways hits had some cancelation on each other).

Heretic: (notes) wants to multiply torque, says manual is a ford standard, TC's a waste of energy
IRONMAN: You're stuck on the fact that Cummins has slightly more torque (40/600 is only 6%) and HP on the low end. Dodge does nothing with it gearing wise, and give it to you in a SLIGHTLY higher combined tow-weight, I'm sure. On the manual with the PSD: Maybe the manual IS the standard choice. I've never seen one on a Ford lot, when I've gone to test drive. I asked about it, and 3 dealerships said I couldn't test drive it, cause if you want it ... you order it. They don't keep'm in stock. Mine is an Excursion, and I don't think the manual is even an option. Oh ... you keep saying how a torque-converter is a waste of energy. You need to drop-n-gimme-20 maggot. Either the conversion is happening and you are getting twice the torque AFTER the X% loss ... OR ... your transmission is locking up and eliminating the loss. Welcome to the 21st Century Heretic. Transmission designers knew that darn near 100 years ago. They solved it, heretic.

FlashGordon: 5.9's in boats
IRONMAN: News flash for you flash. I'm a "boat-engineer" (Naval Architect). Boats use inlines 99.99999999999% of the time. Why? (a) that's what all the big engines come in, (b) You WANT the space to walk past it in the engine room, and have it nice-n-flat next to you. You must be talking TINSY-EENSY boats if you're discussing slapping a V8 in it. What is this, a ski-boat or something?

JohnDiesel, the Beloved PSD apostle: Ford working on a 6-speed auto
IRONMAN: John, thanks for all your support as I have endured my "Passion of the PSD" to give these guys the truth. They wanna know the truth, but they can't handle the truth (whoops, different movie). Hey ... the TS actually IS a 6-gear auto. 4th and 5th gear are logically chosen for different situations. Here is the gearing:

1...3.090
2...2.200
3...1.538
4...1.096
5...1.000
6...0.712

DieselDoner: compare std v. std (not the manual)
IRONMAN: Why? The 0.69 4th gear of the 48RE is gonna give you more speed than the 0.73 6th gear of the NV5600. Perhaps you want a 1st gear-only test, so you can use the 5.63 1st gear of the NV5600? Here would be the headline:

DODGE WINS 5MPH tow-contest!!

Owners world wide would be thrilled. Yes .... their Dodge can tow more at 5mph than any other truck. Meanwhile, the PSD owner, cruising by at 3300 engine rpm and 1242 wheel rpm with his 20,000 lbs (and that must be darn near 120 mph by the way) is laughing hysterically.

Maggots, basic training is not sticking, and we need another running of the obstacle course. The beatings will continue until the morale improves.

You will be the MOST knowledgable of why the PSD is better than the Cummins by the end of this basic training.

Ironman

 

By the way, the alternate shift pattern for the Torqshift is for cold weather. In extremly cold weather it shifts 1-2-3-4-6 and under normal conditions it shifts 1-2-3-5-6.

 

One more thing to consider about torque at the wheels. The auto has a first of 2.45 for the dodge auto compared to 5.69 for the stick. If you are multiplying by 600 the stick makes way more torque at the wheels not including the multiplication of the torque converter. 13800 to 6026. If the tc doubles the torque, which all do not. Then your still left with less torque at the wheels. I found the tc multipliation factor for the torqueshift and its 1.86. With a 3.09 first gear. Lets do the math at 1500 rpms as the higher you go the less multiplication is present. I get 11782 lb ft at the wheels in first gear for the torqueshift. I get less than that with the cummins because of the 2.45 compared to the 3.09 first. Cummins still gets the jump out of the hole due to a higher peak torque sooner. More hp sooner. The cummins can travel farther in first before the first shift than can the PSD. 260.5 revolutions compared to 288. This is an advantage for holeshot.
For the cummins with the auto first raps out around 35 and with the stick it raps out around 22. So the stick has to shift once while the auto gets to stick with the same gear.

 

Like he said, you will beat the PSD to about 5MPH. So what? That doesn't mean too much at all. I don't know anyone who sets the cruise control in first gear or at 5MPH.

 

Logical Heritic, just check the Dodge site, that is all I did. If you look at the 3500 the 6 speed and the auto are rated the same. Drop to a 2500 and the auto can pull more.

Concerning how efficient auto's are today you are wrong. Prior to lockups you are right but with them you are mechanically coupled, meaning that 1 revolution of the engine means 1 revolution of the tranny, no slip.

I didn't miss the transmission reference, yes they are all torque multiplers. But here is the deal, torque not HP is what gets you going or allows you to accelerate. No torque equals no where fast. When you look at the dyno numbers for both engines at least on paper the Dodge should win acceleration but it does not. This is because of the transmission. If you could put a torque shift in the Dodge it would win in every place but top end all things being equal.

 

Actually to 35mph. Whos counting.

You come up with some weird ideas ironman. Not ideas I would expect out of a degreed engineer.

The 6speeds are almost identical. So the output rpms will be similar up til it reaches peak hp. The 400 rpm difference. About 97 rear wheel revolutions in direct drive. But in this case the cummins is faster anyways so back to autos.

If the torque curve was flat after 3300 as you suggest. Wouldnt it make peak hp later? I read the curve and it aint got squat past 3500. We could go back and look at it together if you like. I aint called you a girl maggot or a dumdum. And I aint got moderated. I think you are out of line. Sorry if you cant take it when someone does not agree with you. So Im guessing your saying the cummins torque curve falls faster. They both fall pretty fast. The both go out to 3500. I guess if I lived in a dream world I could see where you were coming from.

 

Heretic:

PSD: Engine: 3300 rpm, 1st gear 3.09, rear axle 3.73, (3300 / 3.09 x 3.73) wheels go 286 RPM with torque of 11,782 ft-lbs (your #).

DODGE: Engine 2900 rpm, 1st gear 5.63, rear axle 3.73, (2900 / 5.63 x 3.73) wheels go 138 RPM with torque of 13,800 ft-lbs (your #)

Get this. The Ford, at this point (when both have wound up 1st gear) ... is going TWICE as fast with darn-near the same load. Like I told you before in another post, and this was not tongue-in-cheek ... the Dodge out-lurches the Ford. That's about it. While you're searching for 2nd ... the TS has already shifted. Then when you get to 2nd, you're all the way up to a 3.38 gear (not even up to 1st for the TS). Meanwhile, much further down the racetrack w/ the tow-sled the PSD made it's shift into it's 2nd, which is 2.20 .... and the gap widens ...

... then the independent magazine writes an article and takes photos. The link gets put on our forum. Then all the turds, maggots and a few ladies show up and begin to cry about all their low-end torque. Big deal, I've been telling you. Big deal. It's worth NOTHING.

Wait ... I've over-stepped. Yes, you can get about 2100 more ft-lbs going up to half-the speed better. The Dodge wins that one. But in practical reality, it just doesn't amount to much. You can put the SAME weight on both trucks, and the average-Joe will drive easily, nicely and smoothly, and the advantage for the Dodge is null. The other 90% of the driving time, the PSD simply out-performs.

Heretic ... do you see the light, now? Curious.

Ironman

 

I like how you think. Force is necessary to move a load. But if its moving its represented as work so you call it hp. If you dont have enough force no work is generated. If you have enough force then you are doing work. The more torque the better. At the lowest rpm possible. Unless your racing.

Since we have rpm and it includes distance and time. Shall we not call it all hp. Instead of saying low rpm torque. We can say low rpm hp. It is closer to the truth. Express it as work and not force.

My uncle is an engineer and so is his son. They have led me to the light on torque and hp.

 

Ironman. Could you please do the math with auto vs auto? I just showed the auto travels farther. Your post is redundant. You are seriously out of line with the maggot comments.

P.S. 2.45 is first vs 3.09. Which one travels farther in first?

 

Heretic: You come up with some weird ideas ironman. Not ideas I would expect out of a degreed engineer

Ironman: Heretic, by the way, I'm not calling you names. Marines call everyone lady. If you complete Army ranger school or BUDS/seals then you're a boy. I'll call you the Heretic ... how's that.

On this one, well, I'm a mutiple-degreed engineer, with a hefty mechanical and thermo background, and some system-engineering frosting on the cake. What can I say. I think a Ford-truck engineer would look at EXACTLY what I have laid out above, in my opinion. Any Ford engineers from the TS factory cruising these threads? Perhaps seeing what all the maggot-consumers are belly-aching about? Chime in and bestow us with some wisdom, please.

I'd give you a hug to make up, heretic, but this ain't the San Francisco national guard, if you know what I mean.

Still ... you should get off the keyboard and quickly drop and give me twenty anyway, with a hearty "thank you Ironman, may I have another?"

(just teasing)

Ironman

 

the 3.09 is first gear for the PSD

2.45 is the first gear for the delightful 48RE on the dodge ... which is why IRONMAN bought the 4.10 rear-end "tow package" dodge, to get it back down lower a bit

Ain't it lights out time for this barracks?

 

PSD: Engine: 3300 rpm, 1st gear 3.09, rear axle 3.73, (3300 / 3.09 x 3.73) wheels go 286 RPM

DODGE: Engine 2900 rpm, 1st gear 2.45, rear axle 3.73, (2900 / 5.63 x 3.73) wheels go 317 RPM

That's the auto's compared with each other. The Dodge is about 31 rpm faster. Now at this point, Heretic (I know you're thought pattern) ... you're thinking .. HEY THE DODGE WINS!!!!

Nope. Why?

Because there's ANOTHER thing for which you're light-bulb has not come on yet. In the first comparison, and again in this one, there is an additional factor. We ASSUMED that each engines takes EQUAL amount of time to rev up to 2900 or 3300 respectively.

However ... due to the incredulous V8 engine design, the V8 can REV FASTER!! Ruh-roh. The Ford will reach 3300 way before the Dodge reaches 2900 (probably not much more than something like a fraction of a second up to about two seconds, but still a difference). So ... we really have to create a more complicated computer model of all the rev-spinup-times, the shifting times and some other factors to actually get the true bottom line.

Or ... we can take the real world test from the independent testors. Either way, I can already tell you that the V8 revs faster ... and will have shifted up to 2nd sooner than the Dodge.

Well, heretic .... ready to say Uncle yet? Let me know.

Gentlemen lay down the king on the chessboard when the match outcome has been determined.

The Ironman

 

Ironman, I don't think they'll ever say uncle. It's all the brainwashing by the Cummins cult.

 

John-my-Apostle .... I'll give this much to Heretic. He made me do the math, and didn't just take my word for it that the V engine offers better options all-around. Ford is no dummy. Neither is GM. They are here to sell some trucks. GM actually picked a great design, and look at their sales. Too bad it's a made-in-japan job. And, the GM's are 90% plastic on the inside. A Ford is like a Bentley ... it's made to be driven. A GM is like a Rolls ... it's made to be driven in (softer pink-lace-panty ride and all that).

Ironman

 

Funny thing is I didn't need all the engineering data to support what I already knew. The broad torque curve of the PSD simply outperforms the Cummins. There has to be some reason why the PSD won in all the tests in addition to the Torqshift. The Cummins is better suited for use in medium duty applications where you will never find a 4-speed auto (on the road).