I'm also curious how this comes out, Karl can be entertaining to read.

 

It was a "itmaylast" brand, covered under warranty. For science sake, I dearly wanted to get it tested to see if it would show any problems. But I had to think logically at the time, I figured if I told the 16year old behind the counter it was bad, he'd believe me rather than trying to explain that it's got flat spots and try to have it tested.

 

Wah wah wah..... first time I got out to the truck this morning, dead cold, has the hesitation before starting. Out of the 10 or so startups, seems to have the same symptoms. Back to square 1, but I'm not complaining yet, so far, it's been free!

 

WRONG ANSWER! The correct response should have been something like this:

"Karl, you're amazing! Your expert help led me to fix this problem right away. You saved me lots of time and money. I'm a better person just for having met you. I bet you smell really nice, too."

Please go back and edit your previous post. I'll wait. You can paraphrase however you'd like, as long as you cover all the major points about me being amazing.

All seriousness aside, don't panic. This is where it's probably very tempting to try something else, not some electro mumble-jumble from some long-winded guy on the internet.

Rather, I say this is exactly the time to continue troubleshooting exactly as you've been doing. A recap:

You have found and fixed a major restriction in the positive side of the starter circuit. You also confessed to having likely smoked the old starter, and depending on the exact failure mode, that may have also restricted overall current flow. With both faults fixed, more current can now flow through the entire starter circuit.

Repeat the voltage drop test because there may still be faults that were hidden when the current flow was previously restricted. Also, make sure the battery is fully charged for each test, as a partially discharged battery will give a misleading low voltage drop in the cables. You want a fully charged battery to stress the cables as much as possible for finding faults.

I'd also suggest to only troubleshoot the slow cranking situation, as opposed to the no-start. Keep the ignition disabled for your initial troubleshooting. If everything checks fine and cranking speed is good, then try it with the ignition reactivated. If you get slow cranking then, you've proved the problem is now related to the ignition timing.

After troubleshooting, let's say the following conditions are met but the cranking speed is still slow:

1) Voltage drops tests on each side of the starter circuit check good

2) Battery voltage remains above 10V under the load of the starter

3) Reactivating the ignition makes no difference

If so, by process of elimination, you're looking at a weak starter or internal binding in the engine. Since the engine seems to run fine on the rare occasion when it starts, internal binding is not very likely. Your new WillItLast starter may still be the primary suspect.

I'll repeat myself, I'm not very impressed with some of the Chinese electrical stuff out there. Your latest starter probably came from the same Fling Dung factory as the first starter, possibly even the same batch. If the above three steps check good, it's time to put on your big boy pants and spring for a genuine MotorCraft starter or equivalent. And if THAT doesn't fix it, then somebody obviously hacked into my account for the express purpose of making me look stupid.

One last thought: Since this isn't the original type starter for your engine, any chance the gear on the new one isn't meshing properly with the flywheel? Maybe the tooth count or center-to-center distance is off slightly. I know on some GM engines, you had to shim the starter to make sure the two gears meshed properly. If too loose, the starter gear could climb and jamb on the flywheel ring gear. Perhaps you're running into a similar situation?

 

The only part I can reply to intelligently at this point is the starter compatibility. The flywheel was resurfaced and new tooth ring installed when it was rebuilt, and the tooth count lines up with the starter. From MY research, this is a fairly common upgrade, simply taking a gear reduction starter from a 1992 f350 460 engine and swapping it for the direct drive that originally came with it. This also puts the solenoid on the starter rather than that chunk of Chinese crap I kept bolting to the inner fender. At a cool price of $135, I couldn't only imagine a motorcraft going for $350+ I've heard from guys on the 460 website having luck with the powermaster mini torque starters in place of them. I will do the voltage drop test again today, same as last time, but I'd like to also check the charging system. Perhaps low initial voltage is a problem too?

 

Okay, do me a favor and stand by the window for a few minutes. If you have any tin foil installed, please remove that. I'm going to take control of the government's mind control rays and hack into your brain for a few minutes so I can get some answers.

Do you still have the fender-mounted starter relay? I had asked about that earlier and you had said the wiring was unchanged. The reason I ask is I looked at some pics of a 1992 F350 starter on RockAuto. Here's a picture, with added text. Is this what your starter looks like, with the separate solenoid next to the motor itself?








If so, exactly how did you wire it? Working off the top of my head, it's possible to keep the fender-mounted starter relay as is, and then down at the starter, simply connect the solenoid signal wire (the small terminal that energizes the solenoid) to the 12v input (the big terminal farthest from the starter body). That way, when the fender-mounted relay is closed and power is sent to the solenoid down on the starter, the solenoid is energized at the same time.

The downside to this method you only need one big switch to control all that current, but instead it's all passing through two in series, both the fender-mounted relay and the starter-mounted solenoid. The upside is the factory wiring is basically unchanged, including still being able to use the fender-mounted relay as a terminal block, plus being able to energize the circuits powered by the I terminal on the fender-mounted relay.

If that is how you have wired it, when you run the voltage drop test on the positive side of the circuit, connect the meter lead on the solenoid's big terminal closest to the starter. If you can, it would be even better if you can clip the meter lead to that heavy braided wire leading directly into the motor housing. That's the most 'downstream' point on the positive side of the starter circuit, so that's where you want to test. If you had been testing on the big input to the solenoid (the one furthest from the starter body), you would not have been testing the ability of the solenoid to carry the current to the starter motor.


RockAuto showed two Motorcraft versions (auto or manual trans) for about $120.





Yes, it could be, but that's why I said to make sure the battery is fully charged before running the test. Put it overnight on a charger. A trickle charger won't cut it, you need a regular charger. If the starter behaves with the battery fully charged, but not in the real world, then yes it's possible the charging system is not working properly, or something is draining the battery with the ignition off. One crisis at a time, though. Charge the battery and run your tests to diagnose and repair the slow cranking fault. Once you get that sorted away, there may be other contributing factors, such as the charging system. But in the meantime, don't go chasing squirrels...

 

First things first, yes, my "new" starter has the solenoid mounted to it, and the solenoid on the fender is only a "jumper" like you stated, sorry, I wasn't clear in that one.

Voltage drop test, once again was darn near perfect. Actually today, other than initially starting it from cold, had ZERO issues.

The only motorcraft ones I found were remanny units, but honestly, it was only a 15 minute search to get a ball park price.

Seems the government is now controlling my truck.....

 

And naturally, today I didn't have a single issue with it, although the wind was blowing slightly from the southwest. My diagnosing leads me to believe the alignment of stars, phases of the moon, or wind direction play a bigger part in it.

 

The stars or moon is crazy talk. What's wrong with you? It's definitely the wind direction. I'd suggest parking on a giant turntable so you can rotate the truck relative to the wind before each start.

One thing you mentioned has me scratching my head. You said the voltage drop test was near perfect. With a starter system (starter, cables, relay or solenoid, and all connections), it's normal to see approximately 0.2v drop on the positive and negative sides of the circuit. That's typical when the starter motor is drawing a massive current flow, and the connecting cables limit that slightly. This shows up as a perfectly normal voltage drop on each side of the circuit. This voltage drop is expected and no big deal, as long as it's below limits.

The only way to get virtually zero voltage drop is to use massive cables, perhaps the diameter of a Rhodesian parsnip or maybe even a Tahitian kumquat. There's no need to waste all that money on such an approach, when a minor restriction with affordable cables is perfectly fine.

This makes me wonder if your new Willitlast starter is not drawing enough current to put out the massive torque needed to spin that ginormous motor. Using some purely made up numbers, let's say any starter motor might need to draw 400 amps of current to spin that motor under the worst conditions, typically a hot restart. Under more favorable conditions, it might only need 250 amps.

Meanwhile, your starter motor left the Fling Dung factory on a Friday afternoon before a long holiday weekend. Instead of being able to draw 400 amps, it can only reach 300, which will still meet the need most of the time.

Your cables are fully capable of handling a 400 amp rush, with only a small and perfectly acceptable voltage drop. However, when tested, your Willitlast starter was only drawing 300 amps. Less current flow means less voltage drop. So maybe that's at least part of the equation why your voltage drop test passes with flying colors, but the starter still struggles.

Now this isn't like ***** Wonka and his egg testing device. If you'll remember that pivotal scene, the tester gave a crystal clear reading of 'Good egg' or 'Bad egg'. If only troubleshooting a slow starter was so clear cut. Determining a bad (or marginal) starter is more a process of elimination. As an honorary Scotsman, I'm always reluctant to suggest any big buck item. However, that's what everything is pointing to.

 

Any updates? Or is this thread destined to be filed away in the unresolved category, with no definitive fix?...

 

Not much time to drive this week, and not debilitating as to leave me stranded but still intermittent. Voltage drop test shows .02 on the neg, and after replacing another wire eyelet on the starter, shows .02 as well. The one time I remember it giving me problems and some other interesting things I've seen are as such. I'd actually have a fast crank for one complete revolution of the engine, and then it slowed for a half crank, then fired up. It was almost like normal, had that bad spot or bog for a millisecond, then was fine. Another occasion was after a fairly long drive, then restart with no issues, when I went to shut it back off, it Dieseled for about 5 seconds....which never did that before. Restart went just fine. Never had a problem since then. The plot thickens! I'm. It against ordering this motorcraft starter by any means, just want a more definitive pinpoint of the problem. Battery is a 6 month old 12v 1100 cca flavor, don't know if I ever mentioned that, but may be of some assistance. Maybe checking voltage directly after vehicle is shut off to see how much juice is on the battery to try and fire? My Initial testing showed the battery to dip under 10v before put it on trickle charge, perhaps alt not charging properly?

 

Could be. Don't try to measure battery voltage directly after charging, or drawing it down, as during a start attempt or whatever. Wait at least ten minutes, or overnight before measuring, you'll see the voltage "bounce back" if it's healthy. But the voltage sounds like it's dropping close to the limit during cranking. 9.6 volts is cause for rejection. Be sure to charge thoroughly with a charger and test again. While it is possible to overcharge a battery with a consumer level charger it takes serious dedication. A modern sealed "maintenance free" battery at rest btw, surface charge removed, measures 12.8 volts at 77°F. If it doesn't measure this it's not fully charged. 12.5 volts is probably about a 50% charge. It will start the truck, but it's not optimal.

Set the engine at a fast idle and turn on the headlights and heater blower, radio, etc. to load the alternator and then measure. Want to see 13.8 to 14.3 measured at the posts. Keep in mind any corrosion in any of the cables and grounds, even invisible, will cripple any alternator. Clean & tight is super important.

 

..........

 

When testing battery and charging ability, a while ago I'm showing a total 14.1 volts charging. I'm not trying to add a new dimension here, but do recall quite vividly a couple weeks ago doing the initial voltage drop test. I popped the hood and measured voltage while wife cranked over, voltage drop was 9.4-9.6. This was completely cold engine after sitting a few days. While subsequently continuing to test, I put on trickle charger for an hour or so to raise that voltage before continuing. When I get home, completely cold and after a few days after sitting, I will measure initial voltage at the posts, and cranking voltage. Anything below 10v at cranking I was told is not sufficient, and what about the posts, is it realistic to believe it SHOULD read 12.5? Maybe a correlation between battery drain down/not sufficient charging after truck has already been started for the day? I see the problem more when it's been driven versus cold start. I'd also like to investigate the factory ford retarded cranking Ive read about. Something I read suggests the module retards the timing 8 degrees at start up, or is that not the whole story? The module was replaced 6 months ago with a motorcraft unit, but I had the problem before that... If I had to guess, I'd say the new engine I put in 8 years ago stemmed the onset of this problem. I then pulled it and put in ported rebuilt heads last year with a new cam. Straight up timing, recurved dizzy etc. just making sure everyone has the complete picture. Thanks everyone for the help! I fee like I made huge strides already!

 

First things first, don't make me break out the tranquilizer dart gun. I've got permission to use it, but dang, those darts are expensive. Sure is satisfying, though...

So let's see, how many issues can you have going at one time? Electrical problems can easily be interrelated with more than one system. That's why, in previous steps, I've strongly suggested doing the starter system testing with a FULLY charged battery. It's easy to get sidetracked into chasing squirrels within the charging system.

From the book of Westinghouse, chapter 6, verse 15: ALWAYS START ANY ELECTRICAL TROUBLESHOOTING WITH A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY.

You had previously mentioned using a trickle charger. Sorry, ain't gonna cut it. A trickle charger is good for putting a fully charged battery into storage. It just doesn't have the oomph to do much with a battery that has less than a full charge. For example, I use a trickle charger on my Corvair when I put it away for the winter. When I have a battery that needs charging any other time, I use an automatic charger I've had for years. After charging overnight, a pretty little green light comes on to say the battery is topped off.

To avoid any potentially misleading results, you will have sadly have to ignore any troubleshooting previously accomplished when the battery was in an unknown state of charge. If you want to zip down to your local parts store to pick up a proper charger, I'll wait.

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After you have FULLY charged your battery (notice a recurring theme?), scroll down at this link for some good troubleshooting for the charging system, straight from the factory service manual:


https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...lternator.html


So remember, any future troubleshooting needs to begin with a (wait for it...) FULLY charged battery. At this point, with so many different readings taken under who knows what conditions, I'd highly suggest starting from square one. That way you won't get waylaid by potentially misleading results.

Re: Your concerns about too much timing advance, possibly caused by a control module issue - Duplicate the harshest conditions as best as possible to make the fault active. Then disconnect and ground the center lead at the distributor to disable the ignition. See if the cranking speed returns to normal. Then reactivate the ignition and see if the slow cranking returns.

Be careful about going off in multiple directions when troubleshooting, especially if you can duplicate the fault. Disabling the ignition will quickly confirm or eliminate the timing as the source of the fault.

If you're having trouble duplicating the fault, keep driving and get yourself a little voltmeter that plugs into the lighter socket. It won't be accurate enough for testing the battery under the load of the starter, but it can give a general idea what the charging system is doing.