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There are some dealers who gouge the customer, as in all business. There are many more who make money and happen to get to be well off. Bravo for them. It is not a game of open the door and sell candy and pop to kids and take their money. For those of you who do not know, where do you think the dealer gets the building he sells from? where does he get the equipment for the service dept? The blacktop paving and the bright lights? The advertising? the insurance? And the vehicles sitting on the lot to be sold? Many of these things come through loans which need to be paid whether or not vehicles are marching out the door. And the salaries of the accountants and office staff and salespeople and floor sweepers, mechanics and shuttle drivers, the property taxes business taxes, operational permits and donation to the local little league and thousands of other details not mentioned. Not to omit the free coffee in the waiting room. So all you hot shots who think business ownership is a walk in the park step right out and open your dealership since it is so easy. Then I will come down and buy from you guaranteed, since you think it a sin that someone should make money providing a service for customers and employment for many. And if those who put it all on the line happen to get rich, more power to them. Their risk, their reward. The dealer is not there to give vehicles away. Oh but wait!! Hear that?? An election is coming and maybe we can get the government to pass some more laws to take more from these evil businesses. Lets beat their profit down lower, after all they don't need it. Lets all get together and make vanilla for everyone. And pay to double the size of the good government so all those good little servants can get paid for doing a good job making sure those evil guys don't make any more than the janitor at the local diner.
...since you think it a sin that someone should make money providing a service for customers and employment for many...
I think this is the heart of the matter. I bet most folks here don't begrudge a business which seeks a profit while providing a valuable service. The question is...do dealers provide a valuable service?
From my perspective, I'll be generous and say that some are better than others. There are folks on this forum who work for dealers (sales and service), and for their efforts here alone I'd wager they are not the typical dealer employee and these precious few folks probably do offer some value to their customers - they certainly make valuable contributions here. I thank them for their involvement here and wish they were the norm rather than the exception. Unfortunately, I have yet to run into one of these rare assets at a dealership. I get stereotypical salesmen who know less about the vehicle than I do and would just as soon sell me a household appliance as a vehicle because 'selling is selling.' I could tell stories, but mine aren't unique.
So no, I'm not thrilled about receiving what can only be politely called inaccurate product information and less than transparent sales experience and then having to pay for this service. For me, the dealer is an obstacle I am forced to overcome because that's how the system works and I am not allowed to order straight from Ford without dealer markup.
I will concede that I, and probably most on this site, are not typical truck/car buyers. There are those who will arrive at a dealership without knowing that an XL has fewer bells and whistles than a Platinum. They need a vehicle now, and are willing to take one from stock. They are unwilling or unable to educate themselves and therefore need help from their friendly sales consultant. For these folks, the dealer will provide a minimal amount of education and a few combinations available for immediate purchase...aka a service. But again, these are also the folks who won't probably won't be very knowledgeable on price or willing to negotiate aggressively - so they end up paying for this service.
Sure, it costs money to run a dealership. I don't expect them to run at a loss. Salaries, overhead, advertising, inventory carrying costs, etc. are real. That money ultimately must come from customers who buy and service their vehicles from/at the dealer. There are other ways to skin this cat. If you want to talk about government interference in business look at the states where trying to change this model is met with stiff resistance from government/politicians who are influenced by dealers using their customers' money.
I see your point but the fact is that dealers are out to screw you for as much money as they can. If they had a flat markup on invoice of each vehicle with no haggling and no bull****, with financing left up to your credit rating and down payment alone, we'd all be a lot better off. The dealerships and the whole, corrupt dealership system has created this adversarial process. I have nothing but respect for people who can manage to wear down a dealer enough to actually get a good deal on a vehicle.
When I bought my Super Duty, the ******* had the nerve to present a price that equalled a payment of nearly $1,500 a month! So I had to get up and thank him for his time and walk out before a more reasonable offer was presented. This **** went back and fourth for a couple of days until an equitable offer was reached. It's a bull**** process.
Ok, here we go. I knew it was coming......
It's a fact that dealers are out to screw you? Really. Where are your facts drawn from. That's just not true, so to say that is simply crazy. They are a business, so yes, they are due a markup on their product. I bet you use Microsoft products and did you realize that it cost like less than 2 cents to produce the product, yet you pay $400.00. Now that bull****.
And $1500 if you are buying one of these truck with the top tier packages is not so crazy at all. Do an amortization schedule on it. What was your term, 3 years, 4 years? Yes, $1500.00 for a five year lease is high, but $1500 a month to purchase a $60,000 truck over 4 years is not that out of line. It's pure math, not the nerve of the dealer.
To me, it seems like dealers make their money on service and parts. Selling new vehicles is tough, but that's why the factory ensures that dealers still make money because of holdback. If dealers weren't so cut throat, then consumers wouldn't have to worry about what the product costs.
The window sticker should show the invoice price, not the msrp. Dealers want to sell for as much as they can get. Many dealers will sell at or slightly below invoice, why, it's a sale and they still get holdback. If they weren't making money, they wouldn't do that.
When I bought my current truck, the dealer told me he likes sales like mine. I come in, we build the truck, it arrives, I pick it up, and they make 3% (holdback). For what, a few hours of work at most.
Why do you feel the dealer should sell you the truck at invoice. The MSRP is what Ford says the truck should sell for. Be mad at Ford, not the dealer. And holdbacks only happen if the vehicle sells right away. Ever wonder what happes to a dealer that has vehicles sitting on their lot month after month? You don't want to be that business. You can't use a best case senerio to define the business model for a Ford dealership. That's crazy!
There are some dealers who gouge the customer, as in all business. There are many more who make money and happen to get to be well off. Bravo for them. It is not a game of open the door and sell candy and pop to kids and take their money. For those of you who do not know, where do you think the dealer gets the building he sells from? where does he get the equipment for the service dept? The blacktop paving and the bright lights? The advertising? the insurance? And the vehicles sitting on the lot to be sold? Many of these things come through loans which need to be paid whether or not vehicles are marching out the door. And the salaries of the accountants and office staff and salespeople and floor sweepers, mechanics and shuttle drivers, the property taxes business taxes, operational permits and donation to the local little league and thousands of other details not mentioned. Not to omit the free coffee in the waiting room. So all you hot shots who think business ownership is a walk in the park step right out and open your dealership since it is so easy. Then I will come down and buy from you guaranteed, since you think it a sin that someone should make money providing a service for customers and employment for many. And if those who put it all on the line happen to get rich, more power to them. Their risk, their reward. The dealer is not there to give vehicles away. Oh but wait!! Hear that?? An election is coming and maybe we can get the government to pass some more laws to take more from these evil businesses. Lets beat their profit down lower, after all they don't need it. Lets all get together and make vanilla for everyone. And pay to double the size of the good government so all those good little servants can get paid for doing a good job making sure those evil guys don't make any more than the janitor at the local diner.
I think this is the heart of the matter. I bet most folks here don't begrudge a business which seeks a profit while providing a valuable service. The question is...do dealers provide a valuable service?
From my perspective, I'll be generous and say that some are better than others. There are folks on this forum who work for dealers (sales and service), and for their efforts here alone I'd wager they are not the typical dealer employee and these precious few folks probably do offer some value to their customers - they certainly make valuable contributions here. I thank them for their involvement here and wish they were the norm rather than the exception. Unfortunately, I have yet to run into one of these rare assets at a dealership. I get stereotypical salesmen who know less about the vehicle than I do and would just as soon sell me a household appliance as a vehicle because 'selling is selling.' I could tell stories, but mine aren't unique.
So no, I'm not thrilled about receiving what can only be politely called inaccurate product information and less than transparent sales experience and then having to pay for this service. For me, the dealer is an obstacle I am forced to overcome because that's how the system works and I am not allowed to order straight from Ford without dealer markup.
I will concede that I, and probably most on this site, are not typical truck/car buyers. There are those who will arrive at a dealership without knowing that an XL has fewer bells and whistles than a Platinum. They need a vehicle now, and are willing to take one from stock. They are unwilling or unable to educate themselves and therefore need help from their friendly sales consultant. For these folks, the dealer will provide a minimal amount of education and a few combinations available for immediate purchase...aka a service. But again, these are also the folks who won't probably won't be very knowledgeable on price or willing to negotiate aggressively - so they end up paying for this service.
Sure, it costs money to run a dealership. I don't expect them to run at a loss. Salaries, overhead, advertising, inventory carrying costs, etc. are real. That money ultimately must come from customers who buy and service their vehicles from/at the dealer. There are other ways to skin this cat. If you want to talk about government interference in business look at the states where trying to change this model is met with stiff resistance from government/politicians who are influenced by dealers using their customers' money.
Going to the dealer to talk to a salesperson is not the most pleasant thing in the world. Many of these guys are hawks and want you to buy, they're concerned about their pocket, not the customer's best interest. Yes, that is a general statement, but that's my experience with most of the dealers I've visited in person.
I agree about some of us being different buyers. When I go to a dealership, I'm fairly confident that I know more about Superduty's than the salesman. I can't expect him to know everything about every product.
Originally Posted by 1965F100(3onthetree)
Why do you feel the dealer should sell you the truck at invoice. The MSRP is what Ford says the truck should sell for. Be mad at Ford, not the dealer. And holdbacks only happen if the vehicle sells right away. Ever wonder what happes to a dealer that has vehicles sitting on their lot month after month? You don't want to be that business. You can't use a best case senerio to define the business model for a Ford dealership. That's crazy!
What does MSRP stand for; Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price. Until the system changes, that is not what the truck should sell for, it's what the dealer would like to get for it. That's why many dealers will sell at or slightly below invoice, because they are still making their money from the holdback. The X Plan puts the price near to the invoice, so people that are eligible can buy for that lower price. Ford wouldn't offer that program if they only wanted to sell at MSRP. If a dealer wants to recoup some of that "lost" money, then let them do it, but I'm not that customer that is willing to pay msrp for a vehicle. If the dealers have an issue with that, let them work it out with Ford, leave the customer out of it.
And holdbacks only happen if the vehicle sells right away. Ever wonder what happes to a dealer that has vehicles sitting on their lot month after month? You don't want to be that business. You can't use a best case senerio to define the business model for a Ford dealership. That's crazy!
To eliminate the speculation and guessing for some not familiar with the process the holdback disappears as a function of interest paid on that vehicle. The interest clock starts for the dealer the minute they accept delivery for a vehicle. Depending on their floor plan (the agreement with Ford and the lenders which prescribes the interest and credit maximums and other terms of dealer management) any profit for handling that vehicle can disappear in 6 months, sometimes less. Not only does the dealership loose that profit but the floor plan can escalate interest costs on the next vehicles due to the dealers non-performance of not selling vehicles. So for you guys who think the dealer should give you the holdback rather than use it to build their business, wait for the turd that has been on the lot 6 months and they will sell it to you at a loss just to move it, especially in a slow sales month like January or February. But look closely at what you are buying. Maybe nobody else liked it either. And all of this feeds into the dealership's need to have high pressure salesmen. Their job is to move cars. If you want the best deals look for a dealership which has non commission based sales. Look for dealers who have realistic pricing from the first offer. Yes you can bargain down a few hundred on these deals. And the high pressure "used car" mentality can be there for those who need that style prompting to make a purchase. The job of the customer is to find a dealership and sales force compatible with their needs. Not all dealers will fall in that category but the ability to have a choice is what free market capitalism is all about. I detest the strong movement toward government dominance in our every step.
It's a fact that dealers are out to screw you? Really. Where are your facts drawn from. That's just not true, so to say that is simply crazy. They are a business, so yes, they are due a markup on their product. I bet you use Microsoft products and did you realize that it cost like less than 2 cents to produce the product, yet you pay $400.00. Now that bull****.
And $1500 if you are buying one of these truck with the top tier packages is not so crazy at all. Do an amortization schedule on it. What was your term, 3 years, 4 years? Yes, $1500.00 for a five year lease is high, but $1500 a month to purchase a $60,000 truck over 4 years is not that out of line. It's pure math, not the nerve of the dealer.
I don't need to prove jack **** to you. Experience tells me that dealerships are out to screw people for as much money as possible. They do not care about selling you a vehicle at a fair price you can afford. They want to tack on sales of things you don't want or need in any way they can because that's pure profit for them.
They wanted to me to do $1,500 a month for a 72 month term on a 65k truck with extended warranties and the bull**** dealer add ons. That's all the evidence I need that dealers are out to screw people. I've owned well over a dozen vehicles in my life. Many of them purchased from dealerships. I've been screwed in the past, I know what it looks like and what to watch out for now. You know dealers want to **** you every time they come at you asking what monthly payment you want. Dealers will use deceptive tactics stating that financial institutions won't finance the vehicle if you don't buy their service plan. I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it.
Every visit to nearly any DFW area dealership has been a battle. Unless I'm getting something serviced under warranty, all I've ever seen is the dealers trying to bend me over and shove it in my crack without so much as lubing its collective junk. If anything, they'll pour sand in your *** before drilling it home.
I don't need to prove jack **** to you. Experience tells me that dealerships are out to screw people for as much money as possible. They do not care about selling you a vehicle at a fair price you can afford. They want to tack on sales of things you don't want or need in any way they can because that's pure profit for them.
They wanted to me to do $1,500 a month for a 72 month term on a 65k truck with extended warranties and the bull**** dealer add ons. That's all the evidence I need that dealers are out to screw people. I've owned well over a dozen vehicles in my life. Many of them purchased from dealerships. I've been screwed in the past, I know what it looks like and what to watch out for now. You know dealers want to **** you every time they come at you asking what monthly payment you want. Dealers will use deceptive tactics stating that financial institutions won't finance the vehicle if you don't buy their service plan. I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it.
Every visit to nearly any DFW area dealership has been a battle. Unless I'm getting something serviced under warranty, all I've ever seen is the dealers trying to bend me over and shove it in my crack without so much as lubing its collective junk. If anything, they'll pour sand in your *** before drilling it home.
Spam have you found a decent dealer in the DFW area. I'm in the DFW area as well and want to avoid shady dealers.
North Central Ford, go the fleet dept. No hassle with them, they even do all the paperwork and financing in THAT dept. There is no going to the manager and then going to the finance dept. that tells you something different. I've got a landscape company in Plano and have trucks from 150's to 550's. (6.0's, 6.4's & 6.7's). I've bought 6 over the last 2 years from them and they always treat me right. As in any purchase in life- do your homework. Talking to a salesman is an *** whooping.
I don't need to prove jack **** to you. Experience tells me that dealerships are out to screw people for as much money as possible. They do not care about selling you a vehicle at a fair price you can afford. They want to tack on sales of things you don't want or need in any way they can because that's pure profit for them.
They wanted to me to do $1,500 a month for a 72 month term on a 65k truck with extended warranties and the bull**** dealer add ons. That's all the evidence I need that dealers are out to screw people. I've owned well over a dozen vehicles in my life. Many of them purchased from dealerships. I've been screwed in the past, I know what it looks like and what to watch out for now. You know dealers want to **** you every time they come at you asking what monthly payment you want. Dealers will use deceptive tactics stating that financial institutions won't finance the vehicle if you don't buy their service plan. I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it.
Every visit to nearly any DFW area dealership has been a battle. Unless I'm getting something serviced under warranty, all I've ever seen is the dealers trying to bend me over and shove it in my crack without so much as lubing its collective junk. If anything, they'll pour sand in your *** before drilling it home.
You are giving off an attitude just discussing this and if you waltz into a dealership with a chip on your shoulder the sales and service you get will rarely be any better than you are expecting. Dealership service is expensive. Yes. But for example I tried to save service money on our last Lincoln. 2 repair shops later and $1200 out of pocket a trip back to the dealer had the problem fixed for around $200. Half of that was to undo what the other 2 shops had done. It is ok to be firm. It is ok to ask. It is not ok to expect others to ignore an arrogant attitude.
Spam have you found a decent dealer in the DFW area. I'm in the DFW area as well and want to avoid shady dealers.
North Central Ford has been by far the best dealership in the DFW area for me. They've also been consistently the best I've dealt with. It's a true car price dealer so they've almost got rock bottom prices posted. Their finance manager is fair. It's not close to me anymore, but it really is worth the drive. I have never tried their body shop, but sales, service and the parts department were excellent.
If you need sales, Town East Ford is fine depending on who you get. If you need body shop work, the body shop at Town East is unmatched regardless of brand. If you need service work, go somewhere else. Their service people may crash your truck and leave greasy tools in your back seat like they did with me.
Originally Posted by Rasalas
You are giving off an attitude just discussing this and if you waltz into a dealership with a chip on your shoulder the sales and service you get will rarely be any better than you are expecting. Dealership service is expensive. Yes. But for example I tried to save service money on our last Lincoln. 2 repair shops later and $1200 out of pocket a trip back to the dealer had the problem fixed for around $200. Half of that was to undo what the other 2 shops had done. It is ok to be firm. It is ok to ask. It is not ok to expect others to ignore an arrogant attitude.
I realize my post came off as angry. That doesn't mean that this is how I start my interactions with dealerships and their service people. I've experienced fair and equitable treatment, quality service and body shop work. I've also experienced the worst vultures that the industry has to offer and everything in between.
Chances are, if its a Ford or GM dealership in the Dallas area, and surrounding cities I have some sort of experience with them that was either good or bad.
[/QUOTE]I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it[/QUOTE]
I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it[/QUOTE]
A TSB does not constitute a warranty repair.[/QUOTE]Every single time I've ever taken a vehicle in to have something performed according to a TSB, I've never been charged for it.
I've seen dealerships try and charge people for work that is definitely covered under warranty with the TSB's to prove it. I've had to print them out and show them the brand's defective *** vehicle can be fixed without me being charged for it
A TSB does not constitute a warranty repair.[/QUOTE]Every single time I've ever taken a vehicle in to have something performed according to a TSB, I've never been charged for it.[/QUOTE]
Here's an example. Ford released a TSB regarding customers complaining about excessive sagging of the F250 trucks. The TSB stated to install 4" spring blocks. The repair involved a new driveshaft. This TSB was definitely on the customer.
Technical Service Bulletins are not recalls and do not require the dealer to pay for it...its just an acknowledgment that some customers have had issues and how to fix it. If your dealer performs TSBs free of charge, I'd say you got a great dealer.
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalytic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Slideshow: Called the Fortress, the 850-horsepower pickup combines Raptor underpinnings with military-inspired features, survival equipment, and a starting price of $285,000.
