You are evidently as highly resistant to common sense as you are to reality.

 

or just high from payote

 

I do have a question for those that think the indians got a raw deal and that as an american I somehow owe them because some white people in the past did them wrong. Now understand NO ONE has proved that I ever moved a single indian to a reservation nor did my parents, grand parents, great grand parents but even that is not he point.
Show me any time in history of the world where any conquering people ever gave anything to those they conquered? this country is the first and only country in the history of the world that has even bothered to give them a reservation. Now do I think those reservations are nice places? not by a long shot, but what irritates me is that the native americans that live there whine and cry about it while sitting on their butts drinking and getting high (smoke peyote and call it their heritage, give me a break) and collect a welfare check paid for by my tax dollars. So tell me who did win the indian wars. same thing with Japan, who did win? we spent more money rebuilding that country and get charged for everything we get from them.
My point is I didn't do it, niether did my ancestors, you didn't get forced onto that reservation, neither did your parents but you DID choose to stay there and whine and cry about it. I don't owe ya nothin JMO. Those on the reservations had every opportunity and in fact more then I did to get an education, paid for most probably by me and to further advance yourself. Ok so it's not the same as your ancestors well if you sit still the world will pass you by. I could give you my ancestry, it's English, Irish and Scottish. now if I tried to stay with the way they lived 500-1000 yrs ago exactly where would I be? fact is your ancestors lost the war so take the oppurtunities offered and advance both yourself and your people into this century.

 

Well MB, I am just the same as you on all your points. I wouldn't say you were wrong at all.

But the Indian tradition as I understand it, is to be good stewards of the earth and live in complete harmony with the land and the wildlife. And this is (oversimplified I know,) carried to the level of being the basis of their religion. And our western way of life, hyper consumerism and maximum exploitation of the natural world, is a tremendous violation of that way of life.

So to think that Indians are going to join our way of life en masse, is an error. It's like asking Catholics to bomb the Vatican.

I am not making judgments here. Just pointing out that it is not just a desire to live without running water, it's preserving a relationship with nature, their religion, which is at stake. Living without running water is part of the price that they have been willing to pay NOT to join in our way of life which they see as disharmony with nature and living a violation of nature's rules.

But the main thing is "we," not you and not me, but our government has made many treaties with the Indians and pretty much failed to live up to them.

The Indians, in spite of your bit about defeated people, have been treated about as well as the jews were treated in **** Germany.

 

It is not at all certain where exactly "Native Americans" originated from. Anthropologists, Geologists, Scientists in general have no definitive single model of what happened. Some schools of thought picture a world where much of the north american continent did not in fact exist until recent geologic time. Add to this - remains of VERY ancient civilisations have been found in some parts of North America. As much as two hundred thousand years older than was thought a century ago.

Native Americans were present here when Lief Ericson arrived, much less Columbus. So definately they were here first.

What does conquest mean? Is a superior force necessarily a more civilised one?

Were the Aztecs more advanced than the Spaniards?

Or did they simply procreate more abundently?

I will watch this all with great interest.

I also hope all of the interests concerned are not foolishly caught up in some kind of an "EXTERMINATION" debacle.

Native Americans are an important cultural source - no one is like them. They have been contaminated, and unduly influenced by outside concerns. They have great promise, but also a lot we can learn FROM THEM.

They were also here first, whether or not they defended their sovereignty well in the beginning.

As to reservations - if the reservations are subject to Native American law, then they are. (?)

Who has the right to butt in?

What this will involve is what lands are rightfully Native American, and to what extent outside governments can jump in and change things. TWO seperate ideas.

Here also we find "HELP" in the form of schools, grants, and aid of various kinds in recent history, and what is thought of them. (BY BOTH SIDES)

Comments?

 

The problem is wolf there is a lot of evidence that what we call native americans were in fact NOT here first but in fact invaded with superiour force and took over from those that were here first but were for the most part a peaceful people. The ones that are now known as native americans were not exactly peaceful even before whiteman came along. Now do I think they should be exterminated? No never have made that connection but the one thing that is so often overlooked is the part about "native americans" not being here first but took over by right of conquest. When looked at in that context their complaint takes on a whole different light, and ask yourself what did happen to those that were here before? did the indians make treaties with them? not from what can be told by archeology they didn't they exterminated them, and IF they native americans could have they would have exterminated the white man too.
Even Native American lore speaks of the ancient people or the people that were here before and some even still describes how they were driven off or killed.

 

The question of lands, who gets what, is a very complicated problem and difficult to be fair.

Natives did not embrace the concept of private ownership of land. Therefore they had no titles, no deeds or even any written records of who owned what. In their belief system, nobody owned the land, like you own your toothbrush exclusively. Everyone and used it in common. It wasn't until it was abused, (for instance the buffalo hunters who killed thousands of buffalo, took the hides and left the meat to rot,) that the Indians started to get touchy about who's land it was.

 

It is told in some lore that "COUNTING COUPE" was a non-killing way for warriors to fight. Kind of a unique idea, I think.

In Europe and elsewhere we just KILL MF'rs...

Monster? From what I have read of anthropology I need references to what you say before I buy off on it.

The Anastasi are a culture that just seemed to go away centuries before european man set foot here.

Nobody has a good explanation for it.

The "MOTHER EARTH" concept is a reasonable one, if one considers the entire plains region to be a self sustaining herd culture wherein some degree of animal husbandry is necessary. To slaughter huge herd-stocks wholesale, and leave the rotting carcasses destroyed the natural abundance. You can easily search on the web and find images of huge piles of Buffalo bones next to railroad sidings from the slaughters in the olden times.

In this the natives were absolutely right!

Buffalo (or "BISON") were protected until recently because they were close to being wiped out.

Buffalo ranches are the reason they have come back in anything like decent numbers This is why you can buy Buffalo Steaks and roasts from one notable shop in Ramona California.

-You will find it northwest of Poway, as you cruise out of San Diego on the fifteen. Highway 67, just as you come into Ramona at the fringes of it.

OSTRICH can also be found there.

 

Good point Wolf. But the Anastasi, like the Mayans developed a centralized culture and then they dropped it for whatever reasons. The Mayan Indians still live in Mexico an Guatamala but they departed their cities for reasons that remain unclear. Maybe the Anastasi are the Hopi (or other,) Indians of today.

 

The Anastasi appear to be much more rare and "Stick to Themselvish".

Also more ancient.

Cliff dwellers? Maybe? We think? We don't know...

Perhaps a small tribe driven away from elsewhere, but given the antiquety - driven away from WHOM?

Once again I have no idea at all...

They appear to have been seperate from the Hopi culture, but as ancient as the sites that have been recognised are - could they have been the founders of the Hopi?

Again we draw a blank....

WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Could a portion of the Anastasi become Apaches?

Ditto

I ain't got a clue at all....

 

Not exactly true, Bdox. Native Americans, and the plains Indians in particular were very much a warlord society, the strongest tribes survived and expanded, the weaker tribes were eradicated. They protected and defended their "lands" as a society/tribe, and engaged in their own conquest and imperialism. I believe that history has established that the Sioux were originally eastern woodland tribes, they expanded west into the plains with the help of firearms and horses provided by the whites. So they technically have no claim to the Black Hills, it was the spoils of war to them just as it is to us. Are they going to repatriate their reservations in the Dakotas to the tribes they exterminated?

 

Sure about that?

Wouldn't you?

 

Except of course the reservations were much bigger.....And didn't employ slave labor, and didn't carry out mass executions or send the 'inmates' to extermination camps.....

Finally....WE taught the KRAUTS something about efficiency!!!.....

 

I've calmed down some and everyone has some good points, but that other kid, saying they should just move on in one breath, but in the next breath saying that he has the rights to this land and would fight all day to protect is a double standard as far as i'm concerned. This is going to be a very tough battle for both sides i think, hopefully it does not grow to the scale of another north vs. south.

The native americans had some very good values about not owning land and using every possible part of an animal if they were to kill it and so and so fourth. If we still had those value, ya maybe we wouldnt have cell phones or planes or who knows what, or maybe we would be traveling planet to planet, but i certainly think this world would be alot better off, and I wish we could still hold true to alot of those values.

 

If it hadn't been for the influx of people from other continents, we would all be gathered around in field somewhere admiring each others Travois, smoking dry grass and drinking dandelion wine