Will the plane fly?
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Chugalug
I can see this one comeing from a mile away.
When I was in the AF I flew in C-130,s.
We would takeoff from dirt runways on many occasions and they were what we called Assault Takeoffs.
The brakes would be locked and power applied to the engines untill the wheels started to drag in the dirt, then the brakes were released and we got jerked back and picked up foreward speed.
I have ran the engines to take off power on a cement ramp with the brakes locked and chocks in place and the plane didn't move.
C-130,s use skids or snow skees in Alaska in the winter.
When I was in the AF I flew in C-130,s.
We would takeoff from dirt runways on many occasions and they were what we called Assault Takeoffs.
The brakes would be locked and power applied to the engines untill the wheels started to drag in the dirt, then the brakes were released and we got jerked back and picked up foreward speed.
I have ran the engines to take off power on a cement ramp with the brakes locked and chocks in place and the plane didn't move.
C-130,s use skids or snow skees in Alaska in the winter.
Your scenarios above have NOTHING to do with the question proposed here.
Elder User
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: northwest,sc
Your scenarios above have NOTHING to do with the question proposed here.
It has everything to do with the question.
You Have to have ground speed to get airflow across the wings in order to get lift, unless it is a VTO aircraft.
When you get below stall speed, if you aint on the ground you will beat the EMS to the crash site.
It has everything to do with the question.
You Have to have ground speed to get airflow across the wings in order to get lift, unless it is a VTO aircraft.
When you get below stall speed, if you aint on the ground you will beat the EMS to the crash site.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
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From: Bonita Springs FL
No matter how many times this is discussed, and no matter how many times it is proven in black and white, some people still cannot wrap their minds around this problem.
The plane will fly. Guaranteed. There is nothing stopping it.
As was stated, the wheels are free-spinning. So your situtations are irrelevant.
The plane will fly. Guaranteed. There is nothing stopping it.
As was stated, the wheels are free-spinning. So your situtations are irrelevant.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,646
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From: Milky Way Galaxy
It's still early in the day and it's obvious that this train wreck is just going to get better and better.
The problem is that this isn't even a debatable question anymore. Like the original poster stated, this teaser has become somewhat of an internet phenomena. To the point that actual Ph.D physicists and aeronautical engineers have posted the solved physics equations, in their entirety, proving, by all reasonable standards, that the plane will indeed take off. There have also been numerous experiments (for obvious reasons no one has stuck a full-size plane on a conveyor belt) done, showing that the plane will take off. The debate for any reasonable person is over.
So the question isn't really about whether the plane will take off, it's about whether or not a person can actually come to terms with the fact that the plane will take off.
The problem is that this isn't even a debatable question anymore. Like the original poster stated, this teaser has become somewhat of an internet phenomena. To the point that actual Ph.D physicists and aeronautical engineers have posted the solved physics equations, in their entirety, proving, by all reasonable standards, that the plane will indeed take off. There have also been numerous experiments (for obvious reasons no one has stuck a full-size plane on a conveyor belt) done, showing that the plane will take off. The debate for any reasonable person is over.
So the question isn't really about whether the plane will take off, it's about whether or not a person can actually come to terms with the fact that the plane will take off.
Elder User
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: northwest,sc
Originally Posted by andym
No matter how many times this is discussed, and no matter how many times it is proven in black and white, some people still cannot wrap their minds around this problem.
The plane will fly. Guaranteed. There is nothing stopping it.
As was stated, the wheels are free-spinning. So your situtations are irrelevant.
The plane will fly. Guaranteed. There is nothing stopping it.
As was stated, the wheels are free-spinning. So your situtations are irrelevant.
Thanks
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,231
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From: Valley of the Sun AZ
Originally Posted by DOHCmarauder
What you, and a few others, are not accepting (neither was I) is that the plane absolutely is moving forward and creating airspeed....the moving runway has nothing to do with impeding forward progress.
I did not say that it would not move forward, I said that it would not fly. For the runway to move it implies that it needs to get movement from the airplane. Newton's Second Law; For Every Action there is an Equal and Opposite Reaction. The movement would be gradual, but there would still be some movement.
A Harrier's engines are vectored to produce the lift. A helicopter's Rotor turns and then tilts to create lift. The airplane in the question will go nowhere as there is no lift occurring on the wings. Even STOL aircraft require some runway to take off.
I guess that it could be possible with the right aircraft. I think may people are making assumptions on the aircraft. If you are talking a Cessna 150, 170 and such, sure I could see it. When I first read it, I was thinking of a DC-9, 727, 737, 747 type aircraft.
I would like to see them do it with a F-16 from Luke.
Last edited by Aztrainer; Jan 4, 2007 at 03:54 PM.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Chugalug
Your scenarios above have NOTHING to do with the question proposed here.
It has everything to do with the question.
You Have to have ground speed to get airflow across the wings in order to get lift, unless it is a VTO aircraft.
When you get below stall speed, if you aint on the ground you will beat the EMS to the crash site.
It has everything to do with the question.
You Have to have ground speed to get airflow across the wings in order to get lift, unless it is a VTO aircraft.
When you get below stall speed, if you aint on the ground you will beat the EMS to the crash site.
Groundspeed, airspeed, the movie speed..............it doesn't matter.
The propulsion, either by jet or turboprop, is not affected by the conveyor belt.
It took me a while to grasp this so I will not be condenscending, but if you really open your mind you'll see it.
The wheels are not providing the ground speed, the powerplants are....the plane will move forward regardless of conveyor belt speed.
Take a toy car on a treadmill...........roll the car forward/backward with your hand.....it may help visualize the answer. Your hand is the propulsion.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
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From: Bonita Springs FL
Originally Posted by Chugalug
When you have PHYSICAL PROOF please PM me.
Thanks
Thanks
From post #25:
Think of the forces involved. The engines are at full throttle, so they will apply force to the plane in the forward direction. In order for the plane not to fly, there would have to be an equal force in the opposite direction. Where does this force come from? Don't tell me it comes from the conveyer belt.
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Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Aztrainer
I did not say that it would not move forward, I said that it would not fly. For the runway to move it implies that it needs to get movement from the airplane. Newton's Second Law; For Every Action there is an Equal and Opposite Reaction. The movement would be gradual, but there would still be some movement.
A Harrier's engines are vectored to produce the lift. A helicopter's Rotor turns and then tilts to create lift. The airplane in the question will go nowhere as there is no lift occurring on the wings. Even STOL aircraft require some runway to take off.
A Harrier's engines are vectored to produce the lift. A helicopter's Rotor turns and then tilts to create lift. The airplane in the question will go nowhere as there is no lift occurring on the wings. Even STOL aircraft require some runway to take off.
The plane will have no problem achieving the speed to achieve rotation.......The belt is moot, doesn't matter, is not impeding forward motion at all............. you will eventially see the light.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
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From: Bonita Springs FL
Originally Posted by Aztrainer
The airplane in the question will go nowhere as there is no lift occurring on the wings.
Since the engines are on, and they are pushing the plane forward, there must be an equal force pushing the plane backwards in order for it to not move. Explain to us where this force is coming from.
Government Teat-sucker
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by DOHCmarauder
Why? The plane will fly, no ands, ifs or buts.
Last edited by stu37d; Jan 4, 2007 at 04:06 PM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Valley of the Sun AZ
Originally Posted by andym
In order for there to be no lift, there must be no forward motion relative to the air around the plane.
Since the engines are on, and they are pushing the plane forward, there must be an equal force pushing the plane backwards in order for it to not move. Explain to us where this force is coming from.
Since the engines are on, and they are pushing the plane forward, there must be an equal force pushing the plane backwards in order for it to not move. Explain to us where this force is coming from.
I agree that there is a force of forward movement and eventually you will reach lift-off, but what I was having a hard time with was not that part of the equation, but the amount of lift required. Conventional wisdom will say that it would not take-off, but you need to think of it in a big picture.
P.S. The forces that are working against the plane are the same as in real life: Gravity, Friction and Drag. Remember it is always present also.
A way for people to see this is get on a treadmill and run or walk at a specific speed and then take a bigger step or stride. You will move closer to the front of the treadmill.
Elder User
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From: northwest,sc
Sorry - I'd rather prove this to you in the open
From post #25:
Think of the forces involved. The engines are at full throttle, so they will apply force to the plane in the forward direction. In order for the plane not to fly, there would have to be an equal force in the opposite direction. Where does this force come from? (Don't tell me it comes from the conveyer belt.)
That is exactly where it comes from. But "I" can't tell you that.
The belt is turning the wheels in the reverse direction keeping the plane from gaining any foreward speed. The belt matches the speed of the wheels.
I typed this real slow so you might understand it.
__________________
From post #25:
Think of the forces involved. The engines are at full throttle, so they will apply force to the plane in the forward direction. In order for the plane not to fly, there would have to be an equal force in the opposite direction. Where does this force come from? (Don't tell me it comes from the conveyer belt.)
That is exactly where it comes from. But "I" can't tell you that.
The belt is turning the wheels in the reverse direction keeping the plane from gaining any foreward speed. The belt matches the speed of the wheels.
I typed this real slow so you might understand it.
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Fleet Owner
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From: Drummonds, TN USA
(I have not read the rest of the answers, and don't remember if I saw this before)
Since aircraft wheels are free-running, and the engines act against the surrounding air, the airplane will gather speed against the air around it and fly.
ASSUMING THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT TAKE PLACE:
The conveyor will attempt to continue to compensate for the aircrafts forward movement, will eventually be unable to, and the chances are pretty good that the conveyor, the aircraft tires, or BOTH will be destroyed.
Since aircraft wheels are free-running, and the engines act against the surrounding air, the airplane will gather speed against the air around it and fly.
ASSUMING THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT TAKE PLACE:
The conveyor will attempt to continue to compensate for the aircrafts forward movement, will eventually be unable to, and the chances are pretty good that the conveyor, the aircraft tires, or BOTH will be destroyed.