Actually, the manual (Eaton, Motors, Chilton or whatever) is used to determine the hours charged regardless of whether it's customer pay or warranty pay. The differences are: (1) In the manuals the job description usually shows 2 different "times". One is "factory" time which is always way less than the shop time (which is also why the techs don't want to do wty work...they're paid flat-rate times based on the same manual), and (2) the hourly rate the manufacturer allows is usually about 10-15 percent lower than the dealerships "customer-pay" labor rate (therfore the margin is lower to the dealer). Also, the mark-up allowe on parts is lower on wty claims...again, less profit to the dealer. It ain't fair or morally right, but that's the way it is.

 

This is a hot topic on other websites as well.The aftermarket placement parts on the 6.0 is being fought very hard from Ford. There are several ford dealers in my local area that will void your warranty if you come in with engine problem and have non-Ford items attached to that engine .The following is from their "Ower's Guide Supplement" that comes with the 6.0
"Some aftermarket products may cause severe engine and/or transmission damage. There are variious manufacturers offering devices to increase turbocharger boost, exhaust brakes to increase stopping/hauling capacity or other such devices to increase the power/torque of the Power Stroke engine. Many ower's past expererince with these products has been very poor. Sever powertrain damage may result from the use of these aftermarket products which will not be covered by the Ford warranty"
This is the referance that each of the dealers pointed to that I had talked to that Ford uses to void warrarty problems.For those want to they can do what they want, but me,I don't have deep pockets, so my truck will stay stock

 

The thing that y'all need to remember is that according to the MM act ford has to prove that your mods did the deed BUT the tac they seem to like to take is to deny your warrenty and leave the ball in your court. That leaves you with 2 options as I see it, 1. buckle under and pay or 2. Hire a lawyer.
I think they are coming at this using the odds angle, if they say no how the heck can you force them to say yes? With an attorney right? They figure that they have more money than you are willing to pony up and a staff of lawyers so they can outlast you or worse case will just have to fix it down the road somewhere after costing you a bundle.

I just had an interesting thought, what if you filled a lemon law claim after it met the days out of service rule for your state? They would then have to prove it didn't meet the law fighting the AG's office. I would also send a letter to Banks via registered mail requesting that they honor their warranty (both verbal and written) that they said they had an attorney if it came to that.
Most of all, good luck

 

Magnussen Moss Warranty Act is here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._15_10_50.html

Read your warranty, it specifically mentions performance chips.

 

ok....
sorry to say this.... but this HAS been discussed many times...

the MM act is just that - paperwork -
FORD only has to "PROVE" it if it goes to court....

otherwise,
all they have to do is say "No" to a repair claim and guess what ?
YOU have to pay for the repair,
YOU have to pay for the research into the cause,
YOU have to take them to court,
YOU have to pay your attorneys,
YOU have to do the proving -

and for some reason I think Ford has MUCH deeper pockets than most of us - heck - ALL of us

and gaggles of shysters to fill up the courts....

 

But how many have actually read the MM act, let alone their warranty?

People read stuff on forums and think it is fact. Then they go out and buy performance mods. When Ford turns them down on a warranty claim, they get all upset. If you put a performance module on your 6.0 and it breaks, there is a high probablility that you will get your warranty claim denied.

 

The text below is from the 2005 warranty posted by Ford. It is from the "what is not covered" section. You can see that it does not automatically void your warranty to install performance enhancing mods. It says a part will not be covered if the modification caused that Ford part to fail.
Be sure your mod caused the failure before you accept warranty denial.

Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
•alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis, or
components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company
•tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or with
the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not limited to
exhaust and intake systems)
•the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than a
certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed for
off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford
Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail. Ex-amples
include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized tires, roll bars,
cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting systems and
performance-enhancing powertrain components

 

I hear ya but in reality it doesn't work out smoothly for the truck owner.
Ford does and will drag their feet and make the situation impossible.
It may seem clear to us but Ford has a full staff and set of procedures that make it to tough for the consumer to force Ford to prove the *true* cause,
Red Tape at its worst if you will.
Mod at your own risk.
I do.............

 

I know you're right. Ford and other manufacturers/dealers have the upper hand and can and do make it hard to beat a warranty denial decision. I'm just saying that there is a way to fight the issue if you really feel you've been wronged. It will be a huge hassle and going through the red tape and maybe arbitration may not even get you satisfaction. If I was facing a huge bill, I'd make sure the cause had been reasonably isolated to my mods before giving up. My truck should be here in less than a week and though I don't plan on boosting the engine anytime soon if ever, I realize that doing so runs the risk of causing damage I'll have to cover and it runs the risk that I'll have to fight for coverage of items not caused by the mod.
I wish Sand King the best of luck but with the little info we have it doesn't look good.

 

The one option that is available and the thing that concerns me is there is warranty on both sides of this issue with the owner stuck in the middle. On one side is ford who is saying it ain't us and on the other is Banks who also is saying ain't us.
I absolutely think a show down between Ford and Banks is needed. You purchased a set of parts that you were told were warrantied against causing a failure and you also purchased a truck that you were told was warrantied against failure.
In that vein, it is time to force one or the other to live up to the expressed/implied warranty. I don't think Banks wants their name dragged through the mud (and this would do it for sure) and I don't think they really want it to be shown that their warranty promise/product isn't worth the paper it is written on. That being said I would start to hammer Banks, tell them that Ford will not budge on their stance that the Banks product caused the failure so you want Banks to stand up to the warranty. They have to do so (or risk bad faith and breach of warranty) or prove it wasn't their product which would prove it was Fords right?
Make them fight each other they have the money!

 

I don't know, but I read the Warranty Guide. Your warranty specifically mentions exhaust, intake and "performance-enhancing powertrain components". Then it doesn't matter what Banks says. Remember Banks is trying to sell their aftermarket products. The buyer is the one making the decision to purchase and install the equipment.

 

And all either of them has to say is "NO!"
and you are stuck in the middle... which we always are...

 

And that's the rub. Ford won't just say the engine warranty is void if you install anything, they say stuff it causes to fail won't be covered. I like them not just voiding outright (which they could in the warranty) but it's a shame some dealers won't actually do enough troubleshooting to make a reasonable call as to what caused some failures. Banks of course warranties their parts but not any damage they cause (I think that's right but I'll have to double check what they have in writing) and if they did cover consequential damage, they could say it was not used as intended. That leaves us poor non-corporate giants stuck in the middle with a big bill and/or no transportation. Anyone who mods their truck should be aware of this risk and decide before hand if they have the will to fight the giants (if they believe they did not cause a failure) or have the cash to pay for expensive repairs. I have the will to fight but not the cash if I lose so my truck will stay stock for a long time (except maybe a filter to get the oil out of the CCV gases being sent to the intake.

 

After reading this thread, I have leanred some lessons:
-never add a tuner or performance mods to a vehicle under warranty unless you know the risks

-if it was so easy and safe to get all of those extra horse power and torque from a simple tuner or chip, Ford would done it a long time ago...

-if you really have to have 400-500 horse power and a boat load of torque in a truck, you might as well buy a corvette.....

 

The following came from Oregon Fuel Injection's web site. It is preportedly from Gale Banks on the warranty issue and their stance:

FANNING FEARS
You want to upgrade your vehicle with after-market equipment, but you're worried about putting the vehicle's warranty at risk. It's no wonder. How many times have you heard someone at a dealership say that installing after-market equipment automatically voids the warranty? This common misconception has been repeated often enough to be widely believed - even though it is completely false.

Wrap-up: Dealers don't like warranty work, which pays less than normal repairs. By promoting the myth that after-market equipment automatically voids warranties, some dealers manage to avoid such low-paying work and charge the prime rate for service which is rightfully under warranty.


THE TRUTH
Most vehicle owners are not aware they are protected by federal law: the Magnuson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1975. Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, after-market equipment which improves performance does not void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, unless the warranty clearly and conspicuously states that after-market equipment voids the warranty. Most states have warranty statutes, as well, which provide further protections for vehicle owners.

In other words, a dealer can't wiggle out of his legal warranty obligation merely because you install after-market equipment. To find out if any after-market equipment automatically voids your vehicle's warranty, check the owner's manual, usually under a heading such as "What Is Not Covered." Although the language may be negative, remember your vehicle manufacturer is simply saying he does not cover the after-market products themselves. He is not saying that the products would void the vehicle warranty.

(Separately sold "extended" warranties vary and may be subject to restrictions not addressed here.)
Wrap-up: As of the 1998 model year, no properly installed equipment manufactured by Gale Banks Engineering has ever voided any vehicle manufacturer's warranty. And, to protect your investment, Banks warranties every power product they manufacture.


VEHICLE DEALERS' OBLIGATIONS
Suppose your modified vehicle needs repairs while still under warranty. Without analyzing the true cause of the problem, the dealer attempts to deny warranty coverage. He made his decision simply based on the fact that you've installed after-market equipment - a convenient way to dodge low-paying warranty work.

An example of how ridiculous this can get is the man who was denied warranty coverage by a dealer on his power door locks, because he had improved his exhaust system! Sounds nuts? It really happened - because that man did not know his rights and challenge the dealer's decision.
Wrap-up: A dealer must prove - not just say - that after-market equipment caused the need for repairs before he can deny warranty coverage on that basis.


YOUR RIGHTS
Point out to the dealer the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act. Require that he explain to you how the after-market equipment caused the problem. If he can't - or his explanation sounds questionable - it is your legal right to demand he comply with the warranty.
Wrap-up: If you are still being unfairly denied warranty coverage, there is recourse. The Federal Trade Commission, which administers the Magnuson-Moss Act, monitors compliance with warranty law. Direct complaints to the FTC at (202) 326-3128.
In the unlikely event Banks equipment becomes an issue during your vehicle manufacturer's warranty period, you have our promise that Banks Engineering will be there for you. If a proper engineering analysis shows that Banks equipment damaged parts of your engine during your vehicle's factory warranty period, and we are notified before repairs are started, then Banks will cover the affected parts and labor at the prevailing flat rate.
Note: Be sure that you call us before you allow any repairs to be performed. If you let the dealer start any repairs, it may cost you the opportunity to prove the true source of the problem, and you will likely be charged for work that is under warranty. Our representative will contact the dealer to assist you in fairly resolving the issue. We want to see that your rights are protected.

Wrap-up: Although a problem caused by Banks equipment is not impossible, it is extremely rare. Banks products are not only designed to make your engine run stronger, but longer as well. We run a durability study as part of the engineering of our power products to ensure that all Banks equipment adds to engine life. If it doesn't, we don't build it (you have to go to our competitors for that!) And, our company's product warranty assures you that your Banks equipment itself is built to last.
The bottom line:
No properly installed Banks equipment will void your vehicle manufacturer's original warranty.


IN THEIR OWN WORDS:
Federal Law:
"In order to improve the adequacy of information available to consumers, prevent deception, and improve competition in the marketing of consumer products, any warrantor warranting a consumer product to a consumer by means of a written warranty shall . . . fully and conspicuously disclose in simple and readily understood language the terms and conditions of such warranty. Such rules . . . require inclusion in the written warranty of any . . . exceptions and exclusions from the terms of the warranty." - Magnuson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act, section 2302(a)