Couldn't have said it better myself :-)

 

I know this ain't terribly technical but, who tows a 10,000 Lb. trailer at 75-85Mph? or who needs to? The Cummins may not be ment for high Rpm/Speed towing but it has the Tourque in the low end where a diesel owner needs it. Although Looking at the specs the PSD is finally getting down there as well. As far as getting a Navistar shop to reprogram the computer well yea it will help, go look at the specs for the PSD version of the VT365 and the Navistar version. The 6.0 puts out more Hp but less tourque than the Navistar version.

 

Actually, most folks that tow horse trailers, fifth wheels, race cars, etc. across the country for recreation or competition tow that fast. I can pretty much guarantee you that if I am pulling a 13,000lb fifth wheel up a 10% grade at full throttle and 65 mph, my engine is more likely to be around 2000-2400 RPM and not at 1600 RPM where the Cummins' peak torque is. I will concede that the Cummins would have the definite advantage when leaving from a dead stop on that same hill.

 

You dont need to tow at 1600 to utilise it. It makes almost 600lb ft from 1600 to 2900. So find a place somewhere in between and go. What you are doing is finding the correct amount of rear wheel torque to maintain the speed against the load. Wind resistance, and rolling resistance. Thats what the tranny is. A torque mulitplier. Wind resistance starts getting nasty above 62mph. Thats why we were limited to 55 mph for so many years. IT wasnt a saftey issure but a fuel shortage that got it started.
Whereas you can tow any where above peak torque. It is unwise to tow below peak torque. So in a cummins and duramax you have to keep the rpms above 1600. The PSD must be above 2000. This seems like it would cause a fuel penalty to the stroker but I have not seen that.
The bore and stroke of a 5.9 is 4.02 by 4.72.
Every person on the road. I guess they need to go back to driving school to learn about stopping distances for increased weights and loads. Its exponential. To travel safely it is required to use less speed to compensate for the much longer stopping distance. Nobody thinks about consequences.

 

Oh.....so this is why you wanted us to leave the other thread. OK

If anyone wants to drive fast the cummins will go well over 100mph, the ford is governed to just under 100. I don't.

In the heavyduty truck market bigger faster and heavier duty seems to be what the truckmakers seem to think the customer wants. If so thats fine. I don't. I wish they would built a slightly smaller truck and concentrate on the things that matter to me. Fitting in a parking lot space. Getting better fuel mileage. Cost. To be honest where I live there is a need for the larger bigger type truck but a reliable high mileage boat or rv puller that would be more manageable would be my "cup of tea". I'm not going to get a truck anytime soon as I promised the wife I would keep this one at least ten years, but if they come out with the half tons with high twenty mpg's and reasonable power and longevity they will steal alot of sales of these heavy duty beasts..........

In short, for my purposes they are both too powerfull and fuel innefficient. As far as durability I would say the Cummins has proven to be reliable and the powerstroke is still too new to make any valid claim. Still, one truck selling more than both the others means they are at least doing what the people want. At least most of the buying public.

As far as the vehicles they are in, I see no difference. I had a few problems with my fords and a few with my dodge. I think some of the prejudices we hear are just that.

 

Someone posted while I was composing. If you look at power curves from the ford and dodge I think you would see that in top gear or the next one down, for most practicle purposes they would both be very very similar in power. I know this is not the same as my dyno for my truck but that is all I have to look at right now. My truck makes 485tq at 2k but maintains 465tq from 1600 to 2800 rpms. Towing heavy I would always be within this range. 1600 in top gear in my 5sp is pretty slow, around 55?
With both the psd and cummins they both have a wide enough powerband that they could be within five or ten foot pounds of maximum while pulling, even if they have to change gears. I think someone said while the 600 gets its max tq at 1600, its max hp is 2900 or 588 foot pounds. Sounds adequate to me. Most commercial trucks make power at lower rpm, even the cummins and navistar versions of these motors.

I have read many posts where a ford owner would say a stock dodge outpulled him and the same from the dodge owner where the ford outpulled. Mileage from one vehicle to another has also varied. As a rule, I haven't seen enough testimony online to say that the dodge pulls better or visa versa. I think its more important that you get a "good one" of whichever truck you get.

 

Guys, the dimensions for the Cummins are 4.02" bore and 4.72" stroke, which is why it is known for bottom end, since it has nearly .6" more stroke than the Ford. That's quite a bit for engines of this displacement.

The whole thing about "top end" for the Powerstroke diesel is a little ridiculous. Its max revs are where a healthy V8 is just getting started. No diesel in any of the major brands has ANY top end-just a very strong low range and a little midrange. That's what you want for towing. So to set the record straight, don't refer to the Powerstroke as having better "top end" than the Cummins-just more midrange. As for differences, they're all minutiae, and in the final analysis they'll all work fine, and every motor from every brand is upgradeable with chips, injectors, and exhaust. Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything, much less prove anything substantial in any of these posts.

As for the merits of the various engine configurations, it is a fact that the inline owns the heavy duty truck and earthmoving equipment market. How much does that have to do with pickups? Maybe nothing at all. Maybe very little. It's definitely not an overwhelming factor (engine configuration) where all V8's and inline sixes in pickups will get the job done.

In farm equipment, a friend likes to say "They haven't made a decent V8 farm diesel yet." When I questioned why that should be so, he mentioned torque rise, which the Nebraska Tractor Testing Lab defines as "torque increase when a load is encountered at operating rpm." As one of the professors at the lab explained it to me, V8's of similar displacement make more horsepower at operating rpm than straight sixes. However, their operating rpm is only a several hundred rpm (in most cases) higher than their torque peak. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a rule the longer stroke of similar displacement sixes means a lower torque peak. Which means when a tough spot in the field is hit while you're dragging a chisel or disk the six pulls longer before dying. This doesn't take long to happen, and several hundred rpm can mean the difference between getting through a wet spot and having to restart the motor. Sorta ironically, the six has a wider powerband in this application than the V8. The shoe's on the other foot in this instance. Lots of farmers tried V8 diesels in the 70's and 80's; the vast majority went back to sixes. Same with other heavy equipment; dozers, semis, scrapers, etc. Have you noticed when more displacement is needed than an inline six, heavy equipment manufacturers don't use V8s, they go to V12s.

For pickups, with fewer gears and easier rolling loads than heavy equipment, I think the guys here make a good point for the broader (but not flatter) torque curve of the V8. More revs are always there to get the load up the hill at the same speed in a lower gear, or to accelerate a load that's already moving, like on a highway onramp. The V8 of the same/similar displacement will faster in most instances. The inline six will win the bumper to bumper pulling contest in most instances given identical trucks with similar displacement engines, due to its longer stroke and lower torque peak. The engines have different strengths and weaknesses. So what? Pick what you like and drive it.

I'm a Ford (gas) straight six driver myself, and prefer my 300 and 309 cubic inch straight sixes to any 302, but I know 302 pickup guys that would burn in hell before they would drive a straight six, low speed torque be damned. They like horsepower.

As a Ford lover, it strikes me as ironic that many Ford owners diss the inline when one of the best engines ever put in a half ton pickup was an inline Ford. I suppose the previous paragraph explains why.

Who cares what engine configuration it has? Just be glad it says FORD.

 

Check out this thread:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...d.php?t=267654

 

[QUOTE=309Ford]Guys, the dimensions for the Cummins are 4.02" bore and 4.72" stroke, which is why it is known for bottom end, since it has nearly .6" more stroke than the Ford. That's quite a bit for engines of this displacement.

Bore and Stoke have less to do with where the Torgue is, then the profile of the cam and size of intake and exhaust ports. The cam is the most important part of where your Max torque and HP curve will be. You can have what ever size valves and if the cam does not stay open or closed long enough you will lose or gain power or torque. This is why manufactors have to balance Torque and HP to match said products intended use.

 

I'm a Ford (gas) straight six driver myself, and prefer my 300 and 309 cubic inch straight sixes to any 302, but I know 302 pickup guys that would burn in hell before they would drive a straight six, low speed torque be damned. They like horsepower.

As a Ford lover, it strikes me as ironic that many Ford owners diss the inline when one of the best engines ever put in a half ton pickup was an inline Ford. I suppose the previous paragraph explains why.

Who cares what engine configuration it has? Just be glad it says FORD.[/QUOTE]



The first car I ever owned was a 68 Camaro with a In-line 6, After talking with a older man "Who was very smart" he informed me that with a little work a Straight 6 will beat any V8 red light to red light. Well $500.00 dollars later I was skunking V8's all night long. This car had a 2 speed power glid and man did it ever hook-up. I have yet to see someone blow up a In-Line or toss a rod.

 

I don't think they took any of Ford's market share, I think that more Americans are buying more trucks than they used to, because Ford's sales look like they are going up to me. I haven't read anything anywhere that says Ford's sales are slipping. If anyone has a link, please post it.

 

You can add top-end power to anything. Just add a Super Charger like most if not all Rigs on the road have. I have seen where people bought a 1.5 ton or Two ton truck to pull Race Cars, Horse's, Hay, Etc. But this is where rear-end selection is so important not the engine.

 

There is something that the inline 6 has an advantage. Not all inlines sixs are built for monster low end torque. Just those in pickups where you are likely to tow. The sixs true advantage is natural balance. You can spin 7000rpm with a stock 300. The 5.9 will spin up to 5500 rpm before parts start to fly. I myself have taken both the PSD and Cummins over 4500 rpm. Neither broke.

 

Muffinman:

Agreed, breathing has more to do with where/when the motor makes torque than stroke does. But, given two motors of the same/similar displacement, the one with the longer stroke has more potential at lower rpm, the shorter stroked motor has better revving potential. All with proper breathing of course. The point not to be missed is the dimensions of the engine have to meet you halfway in the building of a revver or a torquer. Who here, for instance, would put an RV cam in a 289 Ford and try to make a torquer out of it? The stroke is too short. If you aren't trying to make a revver out of it you're wasting its potential and probably using it in the wrong application. A similar displacement six would make a better truck motor.

I love V8's, but in pickups I've been driving inline six Ford gassers for awhile now, one injected, pretty much stock, and another with headers, C series Offenhauser, 4 bbl, etc. etc. The fun to be had with the six is watching your tach as the motor pulls you easily off the line at only 500 rpm. Once you drive a motor that has such good low speed torque it's hard to go back to anything else. It also makes me prone to killing the motor when I drive a stickshift in any other vehicle, as I don't ride the clutch enough to get them started. The six is much more forgiving of heavy loads or low rpm's when starting a vehicle from a dead stop.

A six can beat a V8 as long as the distance from stoplight to stoplight isn't too far. They can get off the line really quick. I've really enjoyed mine.

 

I don't think there are any results to prove otherwise. But market share is market share even if that 35% is 'would-be' Ford sales. You really don't have to lose sales to lose market share, your just growing a lot less.