If someone uses a gun to commit a crime is that the gun manufacturers fault? Same goes for delete tuning, it's intended for off-road use, not on public roadways. If someone breaks the law by using it on the street that is that individuals fault and not the company that sells the tuning.

 

Besides the multitudinous proofs of judgement that demonstrate a thorough test of the applicable law, that is best evidenced by the hefty fines paid by defendant companies represented by attorneys who presumably would find such a loop hole if it existed...

Congress excluded nonroad vehicles that are “used solely for competition" when the Clean Air Act of 1990 was enacted. Accordingly, the EPA adopted regulations that generally exclude vehicles used for solely for competition. Obviously, solely means exclusively. Solely means for singly. Solely means for no other purpose.

The EPA generally "considers the term 'competition' to include only organized racing. It may include both amateur and professional racing, but is limited to closed-course racing and open-course racing that is formally sanctioned by a recognized racing organization. All other uses are considered to be 'recreational.'"

When EPA agents join Facebook to check out who is selling deyete tunes, they don't just show up the next day asking questions. They have ample opportunity and authority to obtain warrants, coordinate with other federal and state agencies, including licensing boards and taxing authorities to obtain business records. So by the time the EPA sends interrogatories propounding documents from the business, they likely already know the answers to the questions they ask, and are just needing to determine if the business owner willingly cooperates, which would make the investigation more efficient to close, or if the business owner perjures his/herself in covering up (which would add to the charges, or at the very least reduce any leniency in fines).

As the public filings reveal in the recent cases that have been prosecuted, the customer lists are part of the evidence. The vehicles that were serviced, tuned, and deyeted are known. Their registrations, insurance, moving violations, toll passings, and parking tickets are all known or easily knowable. It would be a very simple matter to prove that these vehicles that were modified illegally were not just used "solely for competition", as the legislative intent of Congress provided back in 1990. Rather, these vehicles were driven into the shop, and driven away from the shop, on public roadways.

An interpretive problem could be that consumers might be more familiar with an advertiser's misinterpretation or misuse or downright distortion of the regulations... rather than the actual regulations themselves.

 

I agree with you. But unfortunately that's not the way it's shaking down. It's the same with these idiotic lawsuits against gun manufacturers because of crime committed with firearms, people thinking gun bans will stop crime, and the Democrats wanting to confiscate "assault" rifles and have more "common sense" legislation. Now, common sense people like myself think this stuff is nuts and won't help anything. But unfortunately we live in progressive times where people don't think with their brains but with their emotions.

Guns are no where near the problem that people think there are. If they were, with the amount of guns owned by law abiding, tax paying, God fearing people as myself, it would be the Wild, Wild West out there with A LOT more people dying out in the streets than what's going on now. While I admit what's going on now isn't good, things could always be worse.

When it comes to diesel trucks and the general public's perception of them, it's similar to firearms. People fear what they don't understand. There's a lot of ignorance out there. It's also the same with pitbulls. I also happen to be huge fan of pitbulls. Back to trucks...

The fact that a lot of truck guys roll coal and post video plus the old perception of trucks due to older diesel technology does not help our image when it comes to these modern times. Even a lot of truck owners here have strong feelings on deyeted trucks, how they smell and how they pollute. Me personally, as long as a lighter truck isn't smoking nor have a crazy tune which would promote that, I'm not against it. But A LOT of people are, including the EPA and some states. This is just fact, whether we like it or not.

So like the lawsuits against the manufacturers and legislation against firearms, the same with the manufacturers of tuning devices. I don't like it but I feel we have to deal with it. There's definitely an emotional factor when it comes to the defeat devices. I believe there will always be a niche which the little guys will fill. It will be by word of mouth and not advertised. I do believe that diesel technology will improve just like the gasoline sector did to get where it is today.

 

If a shop deletes a truck that is still street legal then yes they are breaking the law, and could be fined. I was referring to companies that sell kits to be installed by the customer, who understands that a truck that has has been deleted is illegal to drive on public roadways, in that case it would be the customer who would be breaking the law if they drive that vehicle on the street. There are many automotive products that are illegal to be used on the street but they are still legal to sell, nitrous kits are a good examples of that, delete kits should be no different.

 

I 100 percent agree with you. However the EPA does not and fined Edge and H&S in the millions. Look it up if you doubt me. Now like many federal fines I don't think those ever saw a court. They are Negoiated settlements where the companies agree to pay the fines and in this case stop making or selling the offending equipment. I don't know but I assume that both companies had lawyers who decided that if they fought in court they would lose and the penalties would be worse pluse they would owe some big legal bills

 

Interesting and in the cases of both Edge and H&S sounds right on. What I would like to have is the refrences for the public records about the users identified in the investigations or the Negoiated Agreements. I'm no attorney but I would expect anything from the internet to be about three levels below hearsay in any federal document, I'm just saying,,,,,,

 

I think the problem is done version of in recognition that on street operators were buying off road kits for on street use, the epa stiffened off road standards so that now these emissions by pass kits are now illegal for both on street or off road use.

rhis way the epa can go after everyone.

so. Is the only choice you have if you don’t want a vehicle with an emissions system is to buy an electric vehicle.

with all the rebates, tax credits, and federal incentives to buy electric it makes sense wby standards for fossil fuel vehicles are becoming stiffer.

 

Yep, I agree and as far as I know what the EPA did to Edge and H&S was never tested in court. The idea of going to court against the federal government scares most small companies in to submission.

 

So how many NYPD officers does it take to inspect a bike? That is just unbelievable. Real crime must be non-exsistant.

 

Performance Diesel Inc: Consent Decree

Spartan Diesel Technologies: Initial Decision and Order

Spartan Diesel Technologies: Order On Motion for Default

BMS Motorsports (NON-Road, OFF-Road): Consent Agreement

FlowMaster Inc (Exhaust Systems): Consent and Final Order

Bully Dog, SCT Tuner, Derive,et al: Final Consent Decree

SCT Holdings, Bully Dog, Derive, et al: Civil Complaint

Klenz Brothers Diesel, LLC: Expedited Settlement Agreement (Getting off easy with a reduced fine for immediately cooperating)

Diesel Innovations: Expedited Settlement Agreement (Even lighter fine for quick cooperation)


There's plenty more.

 

Hey Y2K thanks I got these and read them. Then I wrote a lengthy report for all who didn't want to read them. Then I lost the whold thing in syber space and I am not gonna do it over. So, my bottom line is that there was nothing in any of the posted agreements to indicate the EPA had any interest in the end users of the "stuff" being sold. Nor is there anything to indicate that EPA agents are combing this or any other forum to oidentify users, I mention that because there is a lot of scare stuff being said on this thread and I just don;t believe its happening, at least not from the EPA. In the interest of balance I did note that the EPA contractor ERG was credited with training 150 EPA employees on how to test emissions. That may or may not indicate their intention to start inspecting individual vehicles. I also noted that in at least one small settlement in PA the vendor was identified by their postings on a FACEBOOK site. I do thank you for the info I just read it a bit differently from you.

 

I feel like you are dismissing my report the the EPA police stopped me and issued a warning for emissions violations. The second instance was going to result in a 700 dollar fine and impound of my truck.

the EPA has police units that Patrol major metro areas and checks for emissions compliance . I live in an area of half a million folks in a 20 square mile radiois and apparently we are a big enoug fish to keep epa police gainfully employed.

My violation was I broke the epa 3 second rule in that durin acceleration the cloud puff can not last more than 3 seconds. This cloud puff was occurring on my stock truck during regen.


so I would ask folks like you to stop discounting epa interest in the common man .... they are doing spot checks and they will enforce them.

 

@StanleyZ It sounds like you may be misinterpreting what I earlier said as far as "customer lists" being part of the evidence. The links above are the orders, judgements, and agreements. They do not embody the entire file for the cases those documents summarize.

Whether the case is administrative, civil, or criminal, a prosecution cannot proceed without evidence. Even the summaries above cite the specific number of this deyete kits sold, the specific year, make, model, and engine of the vehicle the deyete kit was installed in. They are not making these specifics up at random. Those aren't guesses. If anything, they likely do not represent all the illegal modifications sold... only the illegal modifications they were able to actually find evidence for. To rise to the level of evidence, they need specifics. Date, time, customer, make, model, year, engine serial number and family name to obtain the EPA certification for the emissions equipment and calibration that was originally filed with the EPA for that engine, so that it can be determined what controlled emissions equipment was defeated or deleted. All of this points to specific customer.

The EPA doesn't just sit the owner of Performance Diesel down in a conference room and ask "So how many deyete kits do you think you sold last year?"

They get specific facts.

 

Remember the Assault weapons ban of 1994? Sure, the rifles became illegal but so did the MANUFACTURING of certain weapons deemed to be "assault" weapons. That also included parts as well. Once it expired in 2004, it opened the flood gates for the AR manufacturers of rifles and parts that we have today. But that's the point, there's no expiration date on these emissions laws.This stuff is never going away. Even as diesel technology has come a long way, it still has a ways to go and like I've stated before, it will become even more advanced while still remaining emissions compliant. While I believe an electric vehicle market will exist and more than likely get bigger, that is a long ways off. What I see as more viable for the future of diesel trucks is electric diesel hybrid technology. I believe we see diesel hybrids in the future...when is anyone's guess.

I don't think diesel is going anywhere any time soon. Either is gasoline engines. Everyone keeps talking about electric vehicles this and electric vehicles that... Petroleum is not going to be replaced anytime soon. Maybe down the line, but we are far off from that now, IMHO.

I thought that was the start of a joke. I don't Stan, how many NYC coppers does it take?

Thanks for those links.


Those Feds don't **** around alright... there's enough of our tax dollars to keep them funded and going.

 

If there is money to be made and there is no danger to the officers, you can bet your a$$ that they'll be all over it. I hate that police does things like this because it perpetuates the stereotype that they are just about generating revenue for the city. If these bicyclist were a real danger to society that would be different but this... No offence to law enforcement who actually try to make society a better place.