What's next?
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 14,266
Likes: 2,186
If there's any one here who doesn't think that this is completely out of line and wrong, please state your case. That makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. So it was a uniformed EPA officer who did this then? Freaking nutz is what I think... So in essence, you are responsible for Ford's lack of a functioning emissions system on the 6.4... 
10/4
i didn’t want to argue with the guy and have my warning turned into a ticket and tow.
I was pretty much shocked ....especially having a current state emissions inspection sticker .
so they are definitely out there....everything from 3 second pufff testing, inspection mirrors, portable scales. Big brother is watching.
FTE Legend
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 31,874
Likes: 9,171
From: Western NY
10/4
i didn’t want to argue with the guy and have my warning turned into a ticket and tow.
I was pretty much shocked ....especially having a current state emissions inspection sticker .
so they are definitely out there....everything from 3 second pufff testing, inspection mirrors, portable scales. Big brother is watching.
i didn’t want to argue with the guy and have my warning turned into a ticket and tow.
I was pretty much shocked ....especially having a current state emissions inspection sticker .
so they are definitely out there....everything from 3 second pufff testing, inspection mirrors, portable scales. Big brother is watching.
Thanks for pointing this out to the doubters out there that this stuff has been happening, that it will continue to happen and/or may get worse. That's thanks to the CARB laws which our Gubner decided to adopt as we are a "blue" state as well...
Mountain Pass
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 175
Likes: 6
I work in a very small city that borders Buffalo and the surrounding towns are bigger. We have two guys in our traffic unit and all they write is speeding, suspended registration/license and stuff like that. They wouldn't know what to write or what to look for anyways when it comes to this. Nor do they care I would imagine. It's funny you brought this up because I just had the idea of asking some of the state troopers I see and know if any of them write this stuff. The guy I got know who has a diesel big truck repair shop in the business section in our city got a summons from a DEC cop who happened to be at NYS Trooper truck inspection stop off the NYS Route road that cuts through our city which sees a lot of traffic. His last gen 6.7 Ford was deyeted. He ended up trading it with the emissions stuff in the bed to a out of state dealer for a new gen Super Duty. He seems to be happy with the Derringer from Banks. He tows a 5er with his truck.
You and I have the same worries. I am happy stock as long as I don't have problems which I don't. I have never gotten a "DRIVE TO CLEAN" message because my truck sees enough highway with hills to get hot besides the little stop and go I do in my city. I live south of the city where the altitude goes up when I drive the expressway home. It keeps my truck happy. I also plan on buying the Mishimoto oil catch can kit when it goes on sale soon to keep all the oil out of the intake from the CCV system. My truck is long term so I want to also buy an AirDog filter system for my truck to shine my fuel to hopefully make my injectors and pump last longer. I am also interested in a methanol system because it keeps the engine and emissions cleaner than stock , makes more power and keeps the EGTs lower. But I did hear you have to be careful with a stock truck because that can affect the Regens. The way I look at it is that we have to turn to the aftermarket to keep the trucks running cleaner, cooler and longer. That's at least how I look at it. My handle is Overkill for a reason. I got that nickname or rather my last truck got that name from a friend of mine who "borrowed" my truck and then it came back with OVERKILL in chrome letters on top of the front windshield. But's that's another story.
I have discussed this in other threads that IMHO, tuners like the Banks Derringer are the future. It keeps the emissions intact, makes power but not as much as the racier deyete tunes but good enough for the majority of us, makes that power with less fuel for less soot produced, does not break into or reprogram the ECM and has safeguards in the system that prevent component damage unlike deyete tunes. The technology of soot filtration and filters has to continue to improve which I believe it will. You also have to remember that like GM, Ford's 2020 6.7 Powerstroke ECMs will be encrypted making it almost impossible to tune as easy as these trucks have been. Sure, someone tuned the 2019 GMs but it costs a ***** ton of money. Time will tell but that's where I think this is headed. Once again for the record, I think with common sense and not emotion. I don't buy into this groupthink of climate change gloom and doom. But these laws are here to stay and the diesel community has to deal with it, whether they want to or not.
Almost forgot, I have seen on some websites emissions on tuning from the deyete players. How well they work is anybody's guess. But you do have established guys like 5Star and Jody at DP Tuner who do legal tuning. Many here speak highly of them. But again, they break into and reprogram the ECMs also.
You and I have the same worries. I am happy stock as long as I don't have problems which I don't. I have never gotten a "DRIVE TO CLEAN" message because my truck sees enough highway with hills to get hot besides the little stop and go I do in my city. I live south of the city where the altitude goes up when I drive the expressway home. It keeps my truck happy. I also plan on buying the Mishimoto oil catch can kit when it goes on sale soon to keep all the oil out of the intake from the CCV system. My truck is long term so I want to also buy an AirDog filter system for my truck to shine my fuel to hopefully make my injectors and pump last longer. I am also interested in a methanol system because it keeps the engine and emissions cleaner than stock , makes more power and keeps the EGTs lower. But I did hear you have to be careful with a stock truck because that can affect the Regens. The way I look at it is that we have to turn to the aftermarket to keep the trucks running cleaner, cooler and longer. That's at least how I look at it. My handle is Overkill for a reason. I got that nickname or rather my last truck got that name from a friend of mine who "borrowed" my truck and then it came back with OVERKILL in chrome letters on top of the front windshield. But's that's another story.
I have discussed this in other threads that IMHO, tuners like the Banks Derringer are the future. It keeps the emissions intact, makes power but not as much as the racier deyete tunes but good enough for the majority of us, makes that power with less fuel for less soot produced, does not break into or reprogram the ECM and has safeguards in the system that prevent component damage unlike deyete tunes. The technology of soot filtration and filters has to continue to improve which I believe it will. You also have to remember that like GM, Ford's 2020 6.7 Powerstroke ECMs will be encrypted making it almost impossible to tune as easy as these trucks have been. Sure, someone tuned the 2019 GMs but it costs a ***** ton of money. Time will tell but that's where I think this is headed. Once again for the record, I think with common sense and not emotion. I don't buy into this groupthink of climate change gloom and doom. But these laws are here to stay and the diesel community has to deal with it, whether they want to or not.
Almost forgot, I have seen on some websites emissions on tuning from the deyete players. How well they work is anybody's guess. But you do have established guys like 5Star and Jody at DP Tuner who do legal tuning. Many here speak highly of them. But again, they break into and reprogram the ECMs also.
My issue is that my truck is one of those that does 90-95% city driving with heavy stop and go with the trips being less than 10 miles. I do have to make 60 mile round trips on the interstate every 2 weeks so that I believe that helps but still... The pessimistic point of view is that stop and go traffic and short trips where the engine doesnt get warmed up will be rough on your engine and get your emissions caked up with soot faster than interstate driving. On this current trip, the DPF % went from 0% to 100% in about 140 miles doing only city stop and go driving. The optimist point of view is that these emissions system are more refined compared to previous years so they should be self sufficient in dealing with soot. My truck is around 3 months old with 2100 miles on it so problems have not and should not arise at present. However, I plan on keeping this truck for at least 10 to 15 years and I dont want to find out what will happen to the emissions on my truck. Therefore, precautionary moves will definitely be made on my end.
Tuning wise, I would like 3 things: sound, MPG, and reliability. At present, compliant tuning can only address MPG whereas the other two requires parts to come off. I do remember reading about Bully Dog having a high flow DPF for 6.4 that is legal but there's no real feedback so I don't know how that's working out. Maybe an aftermarket DPF in future will address all those demands while being emissions compliant.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 19,695
Likes: 12,821
From: Wyoming
I listened to the entire podcast. There were a couple of comments that I found odd. I'm paraphrasing here...
"We made the truck more efficient and didn't make the emissions worse." Do they have emissions test results to back that up? The tweaks that I did to my '07 Titan included aftermarket b-pipes, headers, cat-back and a custom tune. The truck ran so much better (faster, harder, etc), but I could tell, just using my nose, that the emissions weren't ideal.
"In 2012 we had no idea that changing parts was illegal." Really? I knew that the headers I put on eliminated the forward catalytic converters and that federal law made that illegal. That was well before 2012 and I'm just a DIY mechanic.
I still think that the blame for most of this goes to the knuckleheads that have soot poring out of the tailpipe. Is the current emissions approach used in modern diesel engines ideal? No, but if the manufacturers want to produce HD trucks they'll continue to innovate and come up with something better.
"We made the truck more efficient and didn't make the emissions worse." Do they have emissions test results to back that up? The tweaks that I did to my '07 Titan included aftermarket b-pipes, headers, cat-back and a custom tune. The truck ran so much better (faster, harder, etc), but I could tell, just using my nose, that the emissions weren't ideal.
"In 2012 we had no idea that changing parts was illegal." Really? I knew that the headers I put on eliminated the forward catalytic converters and that federal law made that illegal. That was well before 2012 and I'm just a DIY mechanic.
I still think that the blame for most of this goes to the knuckleheads that have soot poring out of the tailpipe. Is the current emissions approach used in modern diesel engines ideal? No, but if the manufacturers want to produce HD trucks they'll continue to innovate and come up with something better.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
OK Ive been following this and I have a few quwestions. What is EPA police? Never heard of them. Are you a commercial vehicle? What state did this happen in and is it your home state? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Logistics Pro
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,523
Likes: 483
From: Southern OH
Removing emissions equipment has never been illegal as long as its for off-road or competition use only. Companies that sell delete kits clearly state that they are intended for off-road use only, so they are doing nothing illegal. If a customer uses it on the road that is the individuals fault not the company that sold them the kit.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
For what its worth to y'all whats changed is the EPA has declared that they have the authority to regulate off road and race vehicles. At least thats what I read. If that is what they are doing that gives them sway over all the off road equipment sellers. Prior to the EPAs power grab the shops could all say they only sell to off road or race people. I guess EPA now says they have declared all the tuners that can be programmed to delete are illegal. I'm told there is a bill filed right now in the US house of Representatives to make the EPA stop. I can't remember the tittle but a look on google should find it and a call to your representative would be helpful. I guess if that bill doesn't pass next summers Talladega NASCAR race will be pretty slow. on edit http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ar-regulation/
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 19,695
Likes: 12,821
From: Wyoming
Removing emissions equipment has never been illegal as long as its for off-road or competition use only. Companies that sell delete kits clearly state that they are intended for off-road use only, so they are doing nothing illegal. If a customer uses it on the road that is the individuals fault not the company that sold them the kit.
From Wikipedia:
In the United States, for example, it is a violation of Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the 1990 amended Clean Air Act for a vehicle repair shop to remove a converter from a vehicle, or cause a converter to be removed from a vehicle, except in order to replace it with another converter,[25] and Section 203(a)(3)(B) makes it illegal for any person to sell or to install any part that would bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any emission control system, device, or design element.
Here is the verbiage of 203(a)(3)(A) and (3)(B)
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 19,695
Likes: 12,821
From: Wyoming
For what its worth to y'all whats changed is the EPA has declared that they have the authority to regulate off road and race vehicles. At least thats what I read. If that is what they are doing that gives them sway over all the off road equipment sellers. Prior to the EPAs power grab the shops could all say they only sell to off road or race people. I guess EPA now says they have declared all the tuners that can be programmed to delete are illegal. I'm told there is a bill filed right now in the US house of Representatives to make the EPA stop. I can't remember the tittle but a look on google should find it and a call to your representative would be helpful. I guess if that bill doesn't pass next summers Talladega NASCAR race will be pretty slow.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
Im a retired career fed. Regulatory agencies rarely go after individuals. Not counting law enforcement and the IRS but going after those who make or sell the equipment is normal. Usually end in a negoiated agreement. I guess there aren’t that many tuner companies left and if they fold then somebody will make tuners overseas. I think they are still made in canada. The market will exsist until the technology improves. DPF and EGR and DEF all combined is not good technology.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
Removing emissions equipment has never been illegal as long as its for off-road or competition use only. Companies that sell delete kits clearly state that they are intended for off-road use only, so they are doing nothing illegal. If a customer uses it on the road that is the individuals fault not the company that sold them the kit.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
If there's any one here who doesn't think that this is completely out of line and wrong, please state your case. That makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. So it was a uniformed EPA officer who did this then? Freaking nutz is what I think... So in essence, you are responsible for Ford's lack of a functioning emissions system on the 6.4...
I don't believe it happened. Don't pass the smell test. The EPA has no police I've ever heard of. Now the DOT does and they could and do stop trucks and write tickets for all kinds of infractions, But, they regulate only commerical vehicles so if you don't have a DOT number or don't look like you might be hauling people or cargo for compension without a DOT number they will not bother you. ON EDIT I just remembered that in NY all f350s are treated as commerical. At least they were the couple times I was up there with the RV. So, it may well have been a state DOT officer that wrote a ticket. Otherwise I don't get it. I have been trying to find that federal law on rolling coal and have not been successful. There may well be some states that have it and I think thats OK. Modern diesels with tuners and deleted emissions make very little smoke unless they are tuned to do so.
If you want to look at the history of diesel emissions it went something like this. Gasoline emissions began in 1975 and detroit made such a mess of it that they almost lost the whole USA automobile monoply to Japan. The public did not like it but it was pushed and pushed and we who are old enough remember whar POS cars we drove from 76 through the early 90s. Diesels were not trgulated because they did not make polluants that EPA was regulating. What they did make was smoke, lots of it. So people were driving these crappy emission controlled cars and seeing diesels making all that black smoke and they complained and the EPA listened. So the EPA led the federal governent in the classifying of soot as a carcegentic (.probably spelled that wrong). Once that was done the way to diesel emissions was cleared. If you would like to look in the 6.4L forum under my ID you should be able to find a copy of the EPA report on DPF TECHNOLOGY IMPACT ON DIESEL ENGINES or something like that. It was the test they used to support their notice of proposed rule making when announcing the plan to require DPF on diesels. The report is a joke and I hope there is more somewhere but I wasn't able to find it. The test was run on a four cylinder car, VW probably or maybe MB, Anyway the final finding was something like "the DPF technology had no adverse impact on the diesel engine even when it reached its useful end at 100,000 miles". Thats not exact but I think I'm pretty close. At the time many of us, me included were driving diesel trucks that routinely went 250 to 400,000 miles. Never the less the regulations were writen and the technology implemented with the aiding and abetting of the Big three.