Exactly. No other religion can say that thier god died and rose again. A piece of wood cannot make the blind see or heal someone of a life threatening disease.

 

phew, I was hoping someone would get that!

 

How can you say that Seuss never walked the earth? He walked the earth for 70+ years, and unlike Jesus, was never crucified for being a fraud.
Jesus died for YOU? So you and Jesus were pals back in the day, right on. I bet he smelled funny. Anyway, so you think he had this divine martyric compulsion that drove him to allow a bunch of no account suckas to pin him to a cross? Why would gawd allow his son to get strung up like a chump if he put him here to teach people righteousness and love?

"Look, Darius! Those fools are takin' the son of gawd and they gonna kill him!"
"No schlitz? Dang, Rufus, that's whack! Now wait a sec, though. How come if god can cause massive flooding, locust infestations, and strike fools down with bolts of lightning, why can't he stop these suckas from jacking his boy? That ain't right, bro."
"That's right, huh Darius? Dang, maybe he AIN'T no sonna gawd after all. And I gave that chump my last $40 cuz he said he'd make my hair shinier and my teeth whiter! DANGIT!"

Personally, I think Jesus was an ancient David Koresh, and the "virgin" Mary? She was a trollop.
All I know is, if there is anything that isn't "concrete" in this world, it's christianity. And with Dr. Seuss, there has never been any debate and fighting over the meanings of what he wrote, every last word can be positively attributed, and the motivations of the author are clear. You can't get much more concrete than that, so I'll stick with Suess, because not only does he not judge me, he doesn't have millions of sycophants running around trying to tell me that they know him and that I'd better join their cult or I will suffer miserably, and nobody tries to convince me that Seuss heals the sick and makes blind people see. In short, nobody lies to me about Seuss for their own personal motivations or to make themselves feel like they are better than me.
BDV

 

Where is the proof that these miracles occured? They are just stories in a book. Show me where any of the 1st century historians even mentioned Jesus? The Greeks and Romans in there written history of that time fail to even mention him.

If Christianity is so universally "good" Why is it so bigoted and ignorant of the diversity of the human race?
How did Noah fit all of the animals on his ark? If you take the measurements of the ark directly from the bible it proves that it would have been impossible to achieve. I bet the authors of the bible when they were making it up never thought anyone would ever be able to figure that one out.
What about the contradictions in the bible about peace and "love they neighbor","Turn the other cheek", Then you see that you have whole massacre's of tribes and individuals that occured at the hands of God's holymen.
To me it seemed almost a farce to teach that this record was written by inspired men; that slavery, polygamy, wars of conquest and extermination were right, and that there was a time when men could win the approbation of infinite Intelligence, Justice, and Mercy, by violating maidens and by butchering babes. To me it seemed more reasonable that savage men had made these laws to suit there own purposes.
There was a time, in the middle ages,when a falsehood fulminated from the pulpit, smote like a sword; but, the supply having greatly exceeded the demand, clerical misrepresentation has at last become almost an innocent amusement. Remembering that hundreds of years ago men, women, and even children, were imprisoned, tortured and burned, for having expressed in an exceedingly mild and gentle way, the ideas entertained by me. The old instruments of torture are kept only to gratify curiosity; the chains are rusting away, and the demolition of time has allowed even the dungeons of the Inquisition to be visited by light. The church, impotent and malicious, regrets, not the abuse, but the loss of her power, and seeks to hold by falsehood what she gained by cruelty and force, by fire and fear. Christianity cannot live in peace with any other form of faith. If that religion be true, there is but one savior, one inspired book, and but one little narrow grass-grown path that leads to heaven. Such a religion is necessarily uncompromising, unreasoning, aggressive and insolent. Christianity has held all other creeds and forms in infinite contempt, divided the world into enemies and friends.
Is it possible that the bible could not have been written by uninspired men? that the assistance of God was necessary to produce these books? Is it possible that Galileo ascertained the mechanical principles of "Virtual Velocity," the laws of falling bodies and of all motion; that Copernicus ascertained the true position of the earth and accounted for all celestial phenomena; that Kepler discovered his three laws -- discoveries of such importance that the 8th of May, 1618, may be called the birthday of modern science; that Newton gave to the world the Method of Fluxions, the Theory of Universal Gravitation, and the Decomposition of Light; that Euclid, Cavalieri, Descartes, and Leibnitz, almost completed the science of mathematics; that all the discoveries in optics, hydrostatics, pneumatics and chemistry, the experiments, discoveries, and inventions of Galvani, Volta, Franklin and Morse, of Trevethick, Watt and Fulton and of all the pioneers of progress -- that all this was accomplished by uninspired men, while the writer of the bible was directed and inspired by an infinite God? Is it possible that the codes of China, India, Egypt, Greece and Rome were made by man, and that the laws recorded in the bible were alone given by God? Is it possible that Æschylus and Shakespeare, Burns, and Beranger, Goethe and Schiller, and all the poets of the world, and all their wondrous tragedies and songs, are but the work of men, while no intelligence except the infinite God could be the author of the bible? Is it possible that of all the books that crowd the libraries of the world, the books of science, fiction, history and song, that all save only one, have been produced by man? Is it possible that of all these, the Bible only is the work of God?

 

True, You got it wrong AGAIN. Look at the time stamp. The post I was referring to was higher up. I was trying to referr to the post without tying up extra bandwidth. For clarity's sake here is the question:

4. If we all lived the above described life, would it matter a RAT'S SPHINXTER what each of us believed?





quote: From True4.2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, your last sentence makes no "sense". ;-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Sorry, but I've never had Buddha or any other god do anything for me lately. What about you? Correct me if I'm wrong please."

Is this what didn't make sense to you?
End quote

No look above. This is what didn't make sense:

"Maybe that makes better since for ya!"


Also I wasn't referring to LIVING two religions, but UNDERSTANDING more than just your own. Or is your mind and will so weak that you would be tripped up if you studied how someone else's belief system works?

 

Do you really know how big the ark was, or how many animals really got on? Probably not. It is possible.
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-039b.htm

How do we know the Bible is true?

 

I am going to find a Zoological Encyclopedia and count out all of the species of animals, and then I will take the measurements of all of these animals and determine exactly how large that Ark would have to be. I will even give room for ventilation, take into consideration septics (I mean, animals and humans intermingling in each others' feces, that would have caused BIG problems!), I will give added space for all of the diverse types of food that would have had to be stored on-board, along with potable drinking water, for hundreds of thousands of animal species, then, after I am done with all of that, I will take into consideration the laws of bouyancy, which without question dictate that for a body to float, it must displace an amount of liquid whose mass is greater than its' own. That would mean that this Ark would have been so large that it's keel could not have supported it's weight in the water; unfortunately, you can't bulk up the keel, because it makes the vessel heavier, so it wouldn't float, and then you'd have to make it bigger, which would require a heavier keel.
Oh, and incidentally, how long did Gawd give Noah to build said Ark?
After that, we'll go into how much raw materials it would have taken to build an Ark of such proportions; I'm talking lumber, rope, resin, and cork, among all the other things, and also the tools required, which surely would have been turned over dozens of times, if not more. Then, we'll total the cost of all of this, adjusted for inflation, for materials, labor, and building space. Even in biblical times, people wouldn't work for free, or give away product, especially when you told them that God was gonna flood the earth and kill them after you finished it.
Slave labor, perhaps? Yeah, that's righteous. How'd they feed all of these workers?
And who designed the Ark? Noah? Wasn't he a fisherman?
The Ark is the biggest joke in the Bable. It is simply impossible. How did Noah gather up all of the invertabrates? And how did the fresh water fish survive in the brackish water? How did the salt water fish do the same?
BDV

 

I think you all are trying to think about this a little too logically. You are talking about the dealings of God hear. God is not a logical. If you are looking at it from a logical perspective. Yes, everything is false and scripted. God is not logical. What part of the Bible or God in general over the years has conformed to science. There are very few instances in the Bible that can be attributed.

The ark for instance. Yes they could have made a ship to encompass all the animals. That's not a problem. Getting it to float on the other hand is a whole different story all together. By all logical puposes. The boat probably would have broke apart after the a couple of seconds a float, but with God on your side, miracles can be produced. However, as the Bible says, "Be it according to your faith."

God can make a ship float if he wants it to float. He can heal people and bring them back to life if he wants to. He is God. He created us and everything around us. If he made it alive or if it is defective, I imaging he could probably fix the problem whatever it is. Start thinking outside the box. Not everything is science. Besides science is the most inaccuate subject we have on this planet. Things in science are consistently changed with new discoveries. Think about it.

 

Thank you splitmaster! Nicely said!.

 

According to the bible, God really isn't logical, you're right. But we're created in his image, right? So, as illogical as we all are, we still possess logic, so what, he just handed it over for fun?

So basically, instead of just striking down all the sinners, god decided to go through all the trouble of rounding up all the animals onto an ark and flooding his creation for 40 days, and for what? To make an example out of the people who perished? That's ripe...so who was around to take in its wonder? Noah? Alot of good that did! It seems like a story like that could only be made up by a man, because why on earth would god want to do something as simple as punishing sinners in such an intricate drawn out manner, when he has the power to simply make them die? I guess that question applies to numerous situations in the bible where god chooses cruelty and pain over mere coercion.
I sincerely hope that if god exists, he isn't as petty and melodramatic as the bible makes him out to be. Unfortunately, all earthly indications of our "all powerful god" point to a cruel, judgemental, fickle, and unloving being, not some loving, forgiving, gentle, caring guy.
I don't care what you believe, fellas, but when you try to pull one over on me, I am gonna point out flaws in your sales pitch.
BDV

 

You know that is funny. Everytime someone gets into a religious discussion, they have to bring up "If God exists why does he let what happens, happen."

It's great because God has given us a gift. A great gift. Now think about this. He is allowing us to act for ourselves. You say he doesnt love you, yet he has given you the freedom to do virtually anything you want. Anything! Would you rather have a freedom or imprisonment. Because that is what it basically boils down to. Yes, bad things happen, but not because of God. We do it ourselves and he has given us the opportunity to work it out for ourselves. Yes God could just take people, he could prevent the wars and stop the killing. Do you know what that would take? Bringing everbody down and subjecting them to bondage. We would not be able to think or act for ourselves. We would have no freedom. We call people like that DICTATORS. Now tell what would you rather have. limitless freedom or eternal bondage. Another thing that God has given us to show us that he loves us is guidence in how we should live our lives. Do the Ten Commandments ring a bell. Look at them closely. If we followed them specific and to the tee. There would not be one war, there would be no hatred or violence. Yet, he lets us act for ourselves.
He even tells the consequences of our actions. Are you paying attention

Now, we have established that God lets us act for ourselves and has given us rules and guidelines to follow. Now, if you read the bible at all you will find that most of the first five books are laws given to the people. Very specific laws. Things these people needed to do and he said if you didn't follow them, the would eventually be destroyed. The people didn't follow them. They were destroyed. They were drowned in a great flood. the only one left. Noah and family with a boat full of animals. The wicked were destroyed and the righteous spared

PETTY and MELODRAMATIC are not God's style. His words were short and too the point and written for US. and those words are The wicked shall perish and the righteous shall endure.

End of Lesson

 

Lesson indeed!
What an insightful oratory on the Great Free Will Cop Out (GFWCO).
Splitmaster, is God in control over what goes on down here? Does he have a say in the happenings in our day to day lives? Is he sculpting my life based upon some kind of plan?
Your answer is probably yes, so let's move on...
Is god's plan for the children of Somalia and Ethiopia for them to suffer miserably with disease and malnutrition? This is the greatest application of the GFWCO ever; a christian will tell you that god isn't allowing those children to starve, it's the actions of evil men, who will pay for their sins.
So god likes to act retroactively? Is that it? If he has so much influence, and has a plan for each of us, why doesn't he just remove that crap from the plan? Why does he put people on this earth only to suffer? To teach others?
Sure, we have freedom, but mankind didn't make mankind the way it is, god made mankind, according to your story book, and in "his own image". So why did he make us inherently evil and sick?
The Great Free Will Cop Out: coming soon where any christian can't answer tough, logical questions.
BDV

 

Hmm, maybe that's how you see him. I wonder why that is BDV? Why would God have anger towards his very own creation? Ok, it's this simple. WE SINNED AGAINST HIM OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... Eventually God's mercy runs out and the only thing that will change your ways is his rath. <--That's what happened in the Old Testiment when God made the flood.

I'm sorry but if my 7 year old son repeatedly rebelled against me and did absolutely nothing I told him to do, I'd get the belt. Then I'd give him about 3 to 4 licks to let him know who's in charge! We deserve God's rath BDV. I don't know how you can even say how God can be. He's God for crying out loud! Who are you to tell him how to punish the world? If he wants an 600 pound grape to fall from the heavens and crush every living soul on Earth, who are we to say no? We're the ones that sinned. God never sinned. He made up perfect with only 1 rule. Man couldn't even keep that 1 rule. I'm sorry but if you look at God, he is the most merciful being ever mentioned.

Now then, about your Jesus theory of dying on the cross:

What better way to teach you how to love your brother than to pay the ultimate price for you...in your place? He took YOUR spot on the cross. He didn't do it because he was weak. He did it because he was strong. He knew every second of the way that he could have commanded a legion of angels to come and strike his persecutors down. THAT WASN'T HIS PURPOSE! His purpose was to take your sin upon himself and die for you. How on Earth, BDV, could you not call that love? You live by the Suess that has never spoken a word to you. I'll live by Jesus who not only spoke to me, but also died for me.


Proof? Ever heard of a place called Argentina? They have documented "proof" that just by sitting in services, people grow gold teeth where there were no teeth. Men with bald heads grow full heads of hair in about 2 to 3 hours. And all this happens in a huge revival going on right now!

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner...ges_in_Ar.html
http://www.followthefire.org/argentina/
http://www.peniel-argentina.org/articles/testim93.htm

I'm not sure how much proof you need that miracles are real from God. What do you honestly think moves these people to crowd churches like that? God does. He's been doing it for 1000's of years. As for the almighty Suess...well I'm not gonna go there.

supercab:

I'm sorry but last time I checked I wasn't perfect. Sorry for misleading you with my answer to your other question, but that's fine with me, now I have the privilege of answering more of your questions. Your question, though kiddish, is a relatively good one. Yes it would matter:

Ok, let's just say that God is real for moment. He sets rules down for us to live for him. We live a good life, but it was not lived for him like he said. It all boils down to this. Ultimately we all die, and the only way we're getting into Heaven is if our name is written in the "Lamb's Book of Life." (keep in mind, I'm just saying this because for this second, we're believing that God is real.) Without accepting God into our life and living for him, our name isn't there. That leaves 1 alternative...hell. There's no in-between line there. Does that sound harsh? Not at all. If there was an in-between line, we'd all just go there. It would be the easy road to stay out of hell. God doesn't work like that. It's 1 or the other...heaven or hell...choice A or choice B. Funny thing is you already know the answer. Now then, it's up to you how to live your life. BUT, if God is real, and you don't live for him and die...there's no turning back. You gave it up because you just didn't want to believe. Now then, all that stuff I just said was for us to assume what would happen if God were real.

Now then, all of a sudden another religion is thrown in there created by man. He makes a Koran for people to live by... Now are you seeing where I'm coming from? I'm not trying to force my belief down your throat supercab, I'm just letting you know what I believe. I hope and pray that whatever you believe will find you in the best place you could be after you die. But, I'm just giving you my alternative to your belief. If you reject it, that's fine. But don't get mad at me for just sharing it with you. God bless ya!

 

I think this thread has come full circle. Didn't someone say something in the first couple of pages about 'every knee will bend etc etc' and described the end of free will. Now here we're talking about free will being the greatest gift we've ever received.

Now how about these thoughts for the ark discussion:
1. Adam and Eve were ancestors for everyone, but then everyone died so now Noah and his wife are everyones ancestors.

2. We've talked about the volume of animals and the size of ship needed, but how do you get a cheeta to live for 40 days with a gazell without eating it?

3. The story of the ark is generally accepted to have happended somewhere on the African continent. Israel isn't it? Anyway, how do you explain things like the American bison, Tigers, polar bears, penguins, platypuses, kangaroos, emus, cougars, and any other life form that has never left any trace in Africa? God went on another creation binge?

4. Where did the Anglo-Saxons, Asians, Negros, Native American, and any other race come from? Inbreeding of Noah's family?

So do we conclude from this that the story is not to be taken literally. That the 40 day flood did not actually happen but this was a story to show how good people are rewarded? If this is so then does that leave those who stand by a literal interpretation (creation in 7 days, 40 day flood etc)? And what parts to you then take to be literal and what parts are parable? Are we to judge for ourselves?

 

Quote from True4.2
You are saying what a lot of people might say. You are the type of person that likes to just blame it all on God right? War started, it's God's fault.
.....
If you were to ask me what I think of the Book of Mormons, the Koran, or whatever else that counters the Bible, I'd say it's rubbish to my eyes. If someone else believes in it, good for them. At least the have found something they can put their faith in because honestly, they'd say the same thing about my Bible...rubbish. "

Actually no, what I'm saying is that man has used differences in religion as an excuse to lower other people to sub-human standards in their own eyes and then justify killing them. ("God hates them because they don't believe as I do. If God hates them then I can be God's right hand and 'smite them mightily' "). Think about it. If I don't take Jesus in my heart as you do then you say I'm going to hell. Then if I'm hated by God and am going to hell anyway then what's to stop you from killing me for God. Maybe you are being inspired by God to do this. Didn't we just execute a murderous clergyman who killed an abortion doctor using similar reasoning. Even though the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' still applied to the clergyman? (and no I don't want to start debating abortion)

I'm saying that God being all powerful wasn't limited to 1 publisher. That he inspires and talks to everyone on this planet every day. That he could have created more than ONE TRUE BELIEF system. And after he did that one of our challenges is to try to meet other people half way without considering their beliefs rubbish.

Lets say that a coworker from another country has a belief system where they have to be present at a funeral ceremony of a relative or that relative is doomed to walk the earth for eternity because no one loved them enough to come to their funeral. (made up belief system but lets work with it). Now you know this person in a passing sense, they keep to themselves, provide for their family, and work very hard. However they don't have money to make it back for the ceremony. You have extra money you've been saving to use on your truck. (lets make it hurt :-) ). This person expresses his problem to you without asking for anything, just to vent. What would you do:
1. Listen compassionately, nod and then walk away.
2. Think man, I'm glad I'm not him.
3. Give him your money to be used for plane fare, no strings attached.
4. Think 'what a load of rubbish'
5. Loan him the money but expect him to pay it back with interest.
6. Take him aside, hold his hand and talk to him about a different belief system.