Splitmaster,
I must have missed your reply to my earlier post. But thanks for responding. Out of all the explanations offered on the Bible, I like yours the best. It would seem to me that if the bible was the real deal then logic would dictate that it would not have been able to pass from one generation, one translation, one culture to the next without being corrupted by man in some way.

Thankyou for your honest opinion.

The posts that I posted before this one are from a Philosophy paper I worked one in College. I think it is a strong argument for a postion that can, neither be supported nor rebuked due to the impossibility of providing proof for or against the existence of God.

 

bigdmizer,

That was a well thought out essay, and most importantly, based in facts, logic, and the Bible itelf. It won't have the slightest impact on anyone here that is a believer, but I thought it was excellent.

I saved a copy to my hard drive.

Waxy

 

You forget, dear bigdmizer, that man was decieved by a serpent in the garden. The serpent was Satan decieving man into eating from the tree of Good and Evil. He told the humans that they would be as powerful as God himself if in fact they ate the fruit. In doing this, the serpect decieved man.

Also, just to keep up with your perfection idea... Woman was made from a man's rib. The woman got decieved, and then the woman decieved the man. Satan tempted them, and they fell into temptation and brought about the first sin. Have you ever heard of God testing man? This was a test to see just how faithful man would be to God. He gave them only 1 command. Do not eat of the fruit from the tree of Good and Evil. Satan jumped at the idea, and brought man to the ground.

 

Again, from the post above, man was decieved by a serpent, and failed God's 1 test. We used our freewill, but we messed up by believing a serpent over God. It all came down to envy. It's one of the 7 deadly sins. Satan struck man with envy, and man wanted to be like God. Man messed up with his decision and brought punishment on himself.

 

Now you're just stepping into a realm which you know nothing about. You have no idea God's original plan. Like the above 2 posts already state, we sinned against God, thus bringing hell to us. Lucifer (satan) was originally God's "right hand man." He wanted what God had and sent an army against God. God banished Satan from Heaven, and sent him to hell to live for the rest of his days. Where do you think the term fallen angels comes from? Demons are fallen angels. Satan is their leader. And God will forever be over them.

 

Like we've already stated, we brought hell upon us. We had the perfect place in the beginning didn't we? We had no shame of our nakedness and no sin to bring us down. Satan didn't like the idea of a human living in this lap of luxory, so he decieved him. God trusted man in the beginning, but man went against God's will and towards Satan's will. Like you said, infinite punishment for a finite sin. When man sinned against God that 1 time, he screwed up the rest of his life for this 1 sin. He put his faith in Satan instead of God. Here's the bad thing, Satan still decieves people today in the same manner. I'll put my thoughts towards the rest of your ideas later. I don't have time at this moment. I hope I brought you at least a viewpoint to look at.

 

According to J. Vernon McGee we are living in the church age of Laodicea. Some church meetings are no more than a social gathering. However we don't have to live our lives this way.

I am in somewhat of a back slidden state. I thought I could stand, but apparently I lied to myself. The veneer came off so to speak.

I am counting on Jesus to get me to heaven and nothing else especially church memebership.

We all need help to make it through this world, if we were perfect we wouldn't need savior.

I had a "melt down" today when the fuel filter on my '94 F150 wouldn't come off and I had dirt and stuff falling on me while lying on the ground underneath the truck.

Lead me not into temptation and deliver me from evil. If too much is put on me, and it seems not to take so much, I will fall.

 

SmittyD, trust and believe that GOD will "pick you up." Read His word and ask Him to forgive you, He will. Just remember that you cannot do anything without Him.

Everyone falls, every day.

 

True,
Did God create Satan? Is God perfect? The argument that I made was based upon the assumption that God was perfect.
If God is perfect, and God created Satan then Satan must be perfect also, as will anything that God created. If something is perfect then nothing imperfect can come from it. If Satan corrupted man and man is full of sin then God was never perfect, nor was God omnipotent or omniscient. Otherwise he would have foreseen the events and had the power to make everything perfect. It is a circle of reason based on the assumptions that the Bible itself makes. That God is perfect, all powerful and all knowing. You can't deny the apparent contradictions.

As far as the omniscient of God, your right I don't know anything about being omniscient, except that a being that is omniscient is all knowing. I made the assumption of God being omniscient based upon the written word in the bible. As far as Gods original plan goes, I have no idea what it may have been, but, again if God is omniscient and omnipotent and perfect as the bible says then nothing imperfect can be a byproduct.

perfect + omniscient = perfect
perfect + omnipotent = perfect
perfect + perfect = perfect
omniscient + omnipotent = capability to be perfect, to see and control all ends.

 

Upon looking at the Bible today it occured to me that the statement "God is Good" doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means. Allow me to break it down.

God is good has been taken to mean that all that God does is good. Not necessarily that God only does good. These are two entirely different things. I believe that the bible's intention is to convey that God can do no wrong. Meaning that if God wants all of the Egyptians children murdered, or for you to murder your own child as an act of faith, then it is a good thing. This presents a convienent explanation for the atrocities in the name of god throughout history. For if an extremist believes that they are recieving Gods message to kill their family or go on a crusade or hold an inquisition then they know that it is "good" as long as it is done in the name of God. However if it was not in God's name it would be an evil act. If we are to use the ten commandments as a moral compass then I'll use "Thou shall not kill" as an example. "Thou shall not kill" is woven into the moral fabric of society. It was handed down by God to Moses as a law that was forbidden to be broken. Anyone who did so was evil and wicked. Yet when it suited God, he would command the slaughter of whole towns (women and children, young and old). It was justified because God said it was "good", even though it is a fundamental law of society handed down by God himself.

 

I can hear Waxy already on this one! People in the world are pretty smart:

1. They can decide for themselves how they came to be without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, I do agree that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart, you won't make it to Heaven based on the verse John 3:16. Consider this bigd, how did all those people get to those remote regions? Do you know how "Bob" got to a deserted without ever hearing about Jesus? How many times does that actually happen? You are looking at the little details while missing the big picture. We had it made in the first place. By throwing God aside and putting our trust in another being (satan) we shoved his word out of our heart. You're simply trying to say this:

'It's not fair that other people in the world who will never the message about Jesus will go to hell. Since it's not fair, God's not just.'

But let's not forget -- How many people do think are in the world who actually haven't heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ? What percent in your mind haven't heard? Now that I've asked that, no, I'm trying to say that if only a small percentage hasn't heard then it's ok. It's a shame actually. A shame that since we've rejected God so many times, other people in the world will not have the chance to hear about God.

 

The Bible is actually pretty easy to understand. Ask God into your heart, live for him, and then go to Heaven instead of Hell for eternity in the end. Eternal bliss, happiness, love, joy, peace, and splendor all in our hands. All we have to do is believe in him and live like we believe. Sounds pretty simple to me. But being the "imperfect" beings that we certainly are, we toss God's word around until it suits us just fine. (ie: some religions believe only parts of the Bible, some religions don't believe the Bible) What these religions will never get is that the Bible was God's word from the beginning. Whether they like it or not, it's God's word.

In some of your ideas you keep saying that God could have just snapped his fingers and solved all our problems. Let me be brief with you on this one. Satan is the problem my friend. I think that's a really huge part of our suffering that we miss. God's not to blame my friend, Satan is. Like I've already said, he decieved us from the beginning and he still is today. Your entire post proves it.

 

Now this one just boggles my mind. How did you come up with the idea that God is emotionless? Is he a robot? If he were a robot, he would have created robots because he created us "IN HIS OWN IMAGE." But we aren't robots are we? We are the God breathed result of our creator. We get angry, sad, happy, etc. etc. throughout our entire life. If God were emotionless, he could care less what you do on Earth. He would have never banished us from the Garden of Eden in the first place. He could have cared less because he can't get angry or hurt right? If your kid cussed you out you'd probably let your kid know where he stands. If you don't let him know, he would continue to cuss you out. If you persisted in doing nothing, your kid would only get worse and worse until one day, your kid would run your life. If then, after this has went on, you said to your kid STOP IT, he would look at you and laugh because in his mind he's thinking,"What are you going to do to stop me? You've done nothing before, why would you start now?"

Thankfully our God is a God of emotion. He let 1 problem come about and took care of it right from the get go. God absolutely has emotion. How you can say he doesn't will confuse me for the rest of my days.

 

I definately agree that you posed an excellent argument to whether God exists or not. But here's the problem with your argument. It wasn't perfect.

 

HEY! WE AGREED ON SOMETHING! I was wondering when this time would come! God bless man!