Whistler,
I believe what the Bible says on this subject. Jesus stated "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." There is nothing we can do to earn salvation, it is impossible for man to receive salvation in any way except to accept it as a gift from God, it is there free for the taking, it just has to be accepted.
I know this is not the answer you were hoping for, but it is the only one I can give.

 

My belief:

God Lives and Christ is his son. While I do not believe in the Trinity, I do believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose in that they want all of us to return home to him. I believe a man can be forgiven of his sins but it takes a lot more than just saying that Christ is your Savior and calling it a day. I believe that miracles happen everyday. I also believe that if miracles have ceased, it is because of our own lack of faith. Faith is essential but is not the only ingredient in the pot. Faith coupled with attitude and a desire to do good will prosper you. We must follow his example and become charitable toward our fellow men. Yes man is imperfect and there are bad people are out there, but they are left to God's judgment and they will receive their reward, whether it be unto everlasting salvation or eternal damnation.

 

I don't think that Christianity is going to be able to sell it's garbage for much longer. All of the points we have made regarding the problems of the world have been answered with absurdities. Like it's man's fault. OK, I'll accept that, based on a lack of god. Because you can't tell me it's black and show me it's white and expect me to trust what you say. If your god truly has control over what goes on down here, and he allows the suffering to continue among innocents, and indeed his most devout followers, then he is not loving and just, like you try to tell me he is. So then you say "Jesus told us it would be difficult." Well, he was sure right. But that sounds to me like something a 1st century cleric would tell a pauper when he asked him why he was suffering so much even though he worshipped god and prayed and asked for help. It's a cop out, an excuse and an answer for a question whose true answer exposes the fallicy of the christian faith. The real answer is: "Golly, I dunno...it says in this book that god loves you, and from what I'm told this book is true." If god loves me, why does he judge me based upon the actions of other men? That's ludicrous! Why does he make children suffer if he loves them? That's a joke, man, you know it, and so does a growing number of people on this planet. If you ask a guy who beats his children mercilessly for no reason, starves them, plagues them, and neglects them, if you ask him "Do you love your children?" and he says "Yes, of course I do. I beat them and starve them and plague them and neglect them because Robert Downey Jr. does bad things.", you would think he was crazy, call him a liar, and demand he be imprisoned. He created those children, and punishes them for reasons that are arbitrary, and we hold him accountable for that. But when god does it, it's justifiable? I know you say we shouldn't question god...why the hell not? I don't question god, I question the way christianity sells him to me for their own benefit.
Face it, christianity has always been a for-profit industry; it's been that way since priests were selling redemption to the wealthy and demanding tithes. It hasn't changed; some churches are now larger than most schools, libraries, and museums, and many are far better adorned, with budgets in the millions. They telemarket, they have TV programs requestiong donations, they send out people to drum up membership, yet they don't pay taxes. So not only are they ripping us off spiritually, they are ripping us off financially. I hope it all comes crashing down on them soon.
BDV

 

You are missing something BDV. Not only is Christianity growing it is the fastest growing religion in the world. While most religions in the world are diminishing, Christianity flourishes. Do you know why? We offer something you can't. We offer hope, friendship, fellowship, and we look out for one another. While you are out there on your own harboring your belief of only the strong survive, we are here trying to make a difference for everybody. If you don't want any part of it fine, but dont mock it. We don't hate you and we dont want you to hate us. Obviously there is a distinct line and as you have seen. We will die to defend what we believe in. You cannot take away our faith with words of contempt, no matter how ardently you try.

Oh, and the Bible prophesies of people who will ridicule it and deride it. So you and your contempt for God are only showing that what is written is true.

What do you think?

 

What do I think?
I think you hardly know me. I don't offer anybody anything as far as this goes, and I am not going it alone. I operate in a large circle of very supportive people who do things they enjoy on sundays rather than sit in a church built by men.
I won't say that christians haven't done good; they have and do and will continue to. I won't take away things like soup kitchens, food drives, homeless shelters, charity events-that stuff is great. But it's being done by secularists also. Plenty of people with no faith at all do great things, except they don't do it in the name of anything, they do it to do it, without thought of holy redemption. Heck, even if they do it in their own name they are still doing it. You don't need to worship god to be saved, man.
I like to think there's a god, I just hope it's not your god. I am happy to accept the existance of a god that doesn't have a hand in all of this, because that would mean that he's not the cause of all of the suffering. It would also mean that he's not judgemental, fickle, or cruel, all things you bible describe him as in great detail. It would mean that things are just the way they are and it's up to me, not a belief system, to save my soul. I don't need a book presented by men with motives to tell me how to live my life, or to shame me for the things I do.
The idea that your god's hand created all things beautiful that man has concieved, yet man is at fault for all the evil and ugliness and anguish, is just absurd. If your god CAN change things but refuses to, he is not a god I have any faith in or any desire to worship or serve. Sorry.
And if you are right, that christianity is the fastest growing religion, we are in big trouble. They already stick enough of their judgemental hand into the laws that govern me; if it gets much worse this country is going to fall prey to their one-sided morality, and will be made cumbersome by it's prohibitions.
BDV

 

Look, BDV. I'm not hear to create contention or anger, but when you insult me by calling my beliefs garbage. I'm going to respond. If you don't believe fine, but where do you are anybody get off disrespecting it. Like I said, if you don't believe fine. Don't believe, but don't disrespect. We have not done anything to you for which we should be ashamed. Our faith is not garbage. Our faith will endure the scrutiny of any man on this planet and will never be conquered. Do what you want in whatever name you want. Blame whatever you want on whoever you want, but dont use us as your whipping boy for all the problems in the world.

I have lived with Christ in my life and I have lived with Christ out of my life and I can tell you that I am a lot happier when he is in my life. You might give it a try. It'll help you dump some of that anger.

 

Oh, and God hasnt been in the Government for quite sometime. In fact God is the one protecting the freedoms you already have. Man takes freedom. Believe it or not, but you probably will disagree with me (If there is God).

 

Splitmaster,
I'm curious as to why you haven't addressed my previous thread. Here I'll post it again. So far no one on the pro Christian team has come up with a rebuke. I'm curious to see your take on my logic:
Bible book of inspiration not truth
The real question is not whether the Bible is inspired, but whether it is true. If it is true, it does not need to be inspired. If it is true, it makes no difference whether it was written by a man or a god. The multiplication table is just as useful, just as true as though God had arranged the figures himself. If the Bible is really true, the claim of inspiration need not be urged; and if it is not true, its inspiration can hardly be established. As a matter of fact, the truth does not need to be inspired. Nothing needs inspiration except a falsehood or a mistake. Where truth ends, where probability stops, inspiration begins. A fact never went into partnership with a miracle. Truth does not need the assistance of miracle. A fact will fit every other fact in the Universe, because it is the product of all other facts. A lie will fit nothing except another lie made for the express purpose of fitting it. After a while the man gets tired of lying, and then the last lie will not fit the next fact, and then there is an opportunity to use a miracle. Just at that point, it is necessary to have a little inspiration.

I will address the old Testament next, the bigotry,slavery, massacre's, war's , incest, and inconsistences galore. All done in God's name and will. It seems God was most likely just another "Jerry Springer guest" when it comes to the old testament. If you care to go head to head with me Idealogically please respond. I have your answers.

 

Bigd:

The Bible was never written for you to decide if it's true or not true. It was written for those who already have faith in it, so that they can live by it. I know that doesn't answer all your questions, but you should look at it from that point of view.

Also, I can't wait for you to address the old testiment and how bad God is in it because I'm sure I'll give your a bit more knowledge on the subject. Before you even start, the old testiment is full of men who disobeyed God and full of men who obeyed God. Look at the differences in peoples life as you go into your "bigotry,slavery, massacre's, war's , incest, and inconsistences galore" theory. Again, I can't wait for your response.

Heh, you'd be surprised. I'll respond better later today. I'm on a break right now and don't have time to draw it all out.

Awaiting your reply,



True4.2

 

BigD, also remember, the old testament happened before the Ten Commandments.

 

Jimmy Dean--

I don't know it that is a typo, a joke, or what. If that is truly what you think, you have a lot of Bible Study to do.

Whistler

 

Moses supposedly claimed:
God produced, caused to exist, called into being, the heaven and the earth. It will not do to say that he formed the heaven and the earth of previously existing matter. Moses conveys, and intended to convey the idea that the matter of which the heaven and the earth are composed, was created.

It is impossible for me to conceive of something being created from nothing. Nothing, regarded in the light of a raw material, is a decided failure. I cannot conceive of matter apart from force. Neither is it possible to think of force disconnected with matter. You cannot imagine matter going back to absolute nothing. Neither can you imagine nothing being changed into something. You may be eternally damned if you do not say that you can conceive these things, but you cannot conceive them. Such is the constitution of the human mind that it cannot even think of a commencement or an end of matter, or force.

If God created the universe, there was a time when he commenced to create. Back of that commencement there must have been an eternity. In that eternity what was this God doing? He certainly did not think. There was nothing to think about. He did not remember. Nothing had ever happened. What did he do? Can you imagine anything more absurd than an infinite intelligence in infinite nothing wasting an eternity?

I do not pretend to tell how all these things really are; but I do insist that a statement that cannot possibly be comprehended by any human being, and that appears utterly impossible, repugnant to every fact of experience, and contrary to everything that we really know, must be rejected by man.

We can conceive of eternity, because we cannot conceive of a cessation of time. We can conceive of infinite space because we cannot conceive of so much matter that our imagination will not stand upon the farthest star, and see infinite space beyond. In other words, we cannot conceive of a cessation of time; therefore eternity is a necessity of the mind. Eternity sustains the same relation to time that space does to matter.

Your Turn!

 

I would question this statement. I don't believe its true, just convenient to say. I'd have to see some proof.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the OPPOSITE is true.

I would be pretty sure that it would be either Islam or Hindu, ir for no other reason that birth rates.

Waxy

 

Big-d

You are asking us to explain things we don't understand either, the power of god goes beyond the human capacity for understanding.

Let me ask you this, if God did not create the matter the universe is made of, then where did it come from?

 

Gdub,

Why can you so easily accept that God had no beginning and reject the possibility that the universe had no beginning?