This is the best discussion about Christianity I've seen/read in a long time. It really takes maturity for someone not to take something like this personal.

I know that I am know better than anyone else. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve - they sinned against God because they were decieved by a serpent. Through this sin God cast them out of the Garden of Eden and into hard labor. He also made them shameful because they were naked. There is absolutely no dougt in my mind that there are hypocritical people on this earth that claim to be Christians, but they just don't live it.

I also think that when someone sees someone cussing, doing drugs, fighting, and causing trouble and then that person claims to be a Christian - they think that all Christians are bad. That is so not true. This is the point I am going to try to make with this reply.

I may be wrong about this this, but Carpe Diem, you are saying that you believe Christianity is dead. The bible is dead, and we are living our own lives on our own terms. If this is true, how do you explain people all over the world having revival? How do you explain healing? How do you explain people "feeling a change" in their lives after repenting of their sins?

I do believe that I am a Christian. I sin daily as we all do. No on is perfect. I am not a Bible scholar, but the Bible does say that "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." This verse also defeats the idea of "once saved always saved." This is not and was never the way God intended it to be. God never ever said that the Christian life is easy and we can do with it what we like. In fact the Bible says just the opposite. The New Testiment of the Bible has 4 Books written by the Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Then it has 14 books written by Paul the Apostle. These books are actually letters written to different people and places. Paul was one of the most persecuted Christians that ever lived. He was beated, stoned, flogged, put in stocks, chained up etc. etc...

He writes over and over about how Christians will be persecuted for their faith. Also, in the gospels, Jesus warned his disciples that they would also be persecuted for their faith.

Guess what, Chritians are still persecuted today. Although, in America where we have so much freedom, we don't feel it as much as other places, we are. What is my point? My point is simply this. I know that I haven't lived for God for 10 years of my life to think suddenly that I have missed him.

That is far from the truth. God is going to return to his church, and when he does "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord." <-- also written in the Bible

I would continue, but for the sake of length and time, I have to stop this short. Again, I am not trying to say anyone is wrong. Every is entitled to their own beliefs, and this is mine.

 

quote:
Proverbs 23 : 9 - Speak not in the ears of fools: because they will despise the instruction of thy speech.
26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
13:20 - He that walketh with the wise, shall be wise: a friend of fools shall become like to them.
15:14 - The heart of the wise seeketh instruction: and the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

I'm not really sure what all this OLDE English mumbo-jumbo meaneth but I'll take a stab at it.

Speak not to fools: Don't talk to those not interested in hearing
He who walks with the wise: Avoid those who don't believe as you do else you become corrupted as they are.
See a man wise in his own conceit: Look at that idiot who doesn't subscribe to your belief system.
The wise man will seek instruction: Those interested will seek you out.

So on behalf of all of us who are happy with ourselves, Leave us alone (not from me but from your own scriptural quotes). Don't come knocking on our doors. And if we feel we need something from you we'll ask.

Or do you have a more direct answer. What do you DO to someone who rejects your beliefs?

 

I have saved the fifth page, keep them coming.

When I said "wrong with Christianity, I meant the practicing religions, of which I can think of about 90, all claiming they are right, all somewhat different from the next. That means that one could expect a large number to be WRONG. There really are no levels of correct.

Before arguing the validity of Bibles in general, we must first realize that there are over one hundred translations into English, and heaven only knows how many into every other language. Arguments occur world wide, because of misunderstood concepts and inaccurate translations.

SO, looking at the broad picture, unless you are studying the original texts, in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, you are studying varying degrees of accuracy. Not all Bibles are Divinely Inspired, I can think of a couple that cannot be, as they fly blatantly in the face of accepted Divinity. Accuracy is not within the translation, but within the Brain's interpretation of the translation, provided you are Divinely Inspired.

When I say what is wrong with Christianity, I mean just that. The practice of Christianity, in the modern world is seriously flawed. Principles laid down by the Prophets, and the Disciples are thrown out, and corruptions, or worse still, perversions are taking the place of those principles. That is what is wrong with Christianity - The Religion as practiced today is not the Truth we are trying to seek, it is man's idea of what the truth should be. There is the mess, there is the problem, and that is what I am trying to address, with the help of all the posts in this thread.


I am leaving for 3 days, tonight, so will have no time to follow this thread, so I apologize for throwing in another curve, and running.

Please read half a dozen translations, and see what I mean. Look into the practices of the main versions of Christianity in the US, and again, see what I mean. Some of you in one part of the country, going to one church, would be horrified with the steadfast beliefs held by a different congregation in a different region.


Theo.

 

But see Theo, that's just the problem. We get caught up in what religion is -- right or wrong according to what we have been taught. Also, I think the word religion gets used, but people don't really get the full meaning of it. Religion means a practice -- a practice of whatever you do according to your denomination. These are 2 words we should not get mixed up.

Religion and denomination

Denomination is what your backgroud is. Like Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, etc. etc.

Religion is the practice of what we do according to these denominations.

EX: tithing, worshiping with music, worshiping without music, how often we have communion, fellowship, praying vs. saying a ritual hailmary.

Am I saying one is better than the other? NO! I am of the Assemblies of God denomination and we have praise and worship first thing on Sunday. We have 2 services on Sunday - Early and Late. Sunday School is between the 2 services. I play in the church band on Sunday (guitar). We have a very big band as well as a very big church for the size of our town. Am I bragging? No, I am not. Our church has about 4 songs we play every sunday morning and then we usually have a night service as well. What's my point? Even with all this our church is far from perfect. We have a church right next to us that is of the Church of Christ denomination. They don't believe you should worship with intruments because it isn't biblical. They accuse our church of being a cult all the time. This is the difference.

Their church has no future goals, no plans, no guidance, and they ultimately have no vision because they are so caught up in what "our church does wrong." They focus so much on what we do that they fail to see the big picture. What's that?

The Great Commission - Living for God on Earth, dying and going to Heaven, and taking as many souls to Heaven as we can with us.

What does that mean? No, I am not saying when I die that I'll take your soul with me. That's absurd. What I'm saying is, if you don't believe in Christ and I am the only person on Earth that can make you a believer then I am going to do my best to see you saved so that when you die, your "soul" can go to Heaven.

ALSO: this is just for whoever is interested. If you have trouble believing in Heaven and Hell -- you need to read this book. You can take it for what it's worth, but I seriously don't believe someone could just make this up. It's called "Devine Revelation of Hell"
Also, there is a book called "Divine Revelation of Heaven" (same author) It's about a woman who was taken into Hell and shown exactly what hell looks like, what goes on in hell, and how people get there. It's VERY interesting! It's not very long either -- very easy reading. I know it sounds far out, but once you read it, you'll have an entire new outlook on eternity...I guarantee it!

Psalm 33:1-3: Let the godly sing with joy to the Lord, for it is fitting to praise him. Praise the Lord with melodies on the lyre; make music for him on the ten-stringed harp. Sing new songs of praise to him; play skillfully on the harp and sing with joy. NLT

The above verse is to confirm that it is biblical to worship God with music and instruments. Also, I wasn't trying to down the Church of Christ, it's just that this particular church has always looked down on us.

 

Also, Fisher_of_Man -- Hey, I was just wondering where you were from. You bring on really good discussion arguments. When you put verses with your supporting rebuttal that makes it really cool to read.

 

san angelo, texas...thanks for your comments.

 

Thanx, I'm from Lufkin, TX -- about an hour and a half North of Houston

 

That is exactly my point. WHO IS RIGHT, WHOSE TRUTH IS REAL?

That is the massive question, that cannot have an answer, because we cannot judge our fellow man, but as you said, your neighboring Church is doing that - judging you as a cult, or wrong. That is the problem. Until we as Christians can put away the historical quarrel, we are not serving our Lord, or humanity.

I am using this thread as an illustration for a debate I am still involved in. Though without a Church, I still have influence in many places, and as a group, many disgruntled priests of differing denominations are trying to get to the root of the dissension. I believe that the discourse in this thread is getting nearer a solution than the 'great thinkers' are managing to get. Again, it is wonderful to have this forum as a place where these ideas can be aired.

Thank you all again, for this.

Theo

 

Waxy, and others please check out this site. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55: 9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

and many others.

Isaiah 40:22
Isaiah 55: 9
II Peter 3:7
Ecclesiastes 1:7
Jeremiah 33:22
Psalm 102:25-27
Leviticus 17:11
Ecclesiastes 1:6
Job 26:7

 

Since I was directly referenced, I thought I'd check this out. My mind is not closed to anything new, I'm just very skeptical.

I read the page. Interesting. Lots of talk, not many facts.

I'll post the Bible passages under each of your headings so that everyone can read them and judge for themselves.

IMHO, if these are the best parallels that can be drawn from the Bible, I'm even less convinced that it is a literal or "scientific" book than I was before. You really have to want it to be there to see any connection between these passages and their proposed scientific equivalents. Even then, it's a real stretch.

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Quote:

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55: 9)

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Quote:

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Quote:

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

Quote:

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me

Quote:

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Quote:

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Quote:

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

Quote:

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

They do add this disclaimer at the bottom of the section

These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

Waxy

 

Okay, let me first admit that there's NO WAY I've had time to go through and read all the posts here. Of the ones I have read, it occured to me that, from Carpe Diems first post, the people today living most like Christians are the Amish. Also, I love it when certain so-called Christians use quotations exclusively from the Old Testament to defend their hateful beliefs. I always thought that Christians were disciples (followers) of Christ. Yet they so rarely quote JC himself. TV Evangelists usually stand at the top of this list. The Amish fascinate me because they have no use for a physical building called a church (neither did Jesus Christ). They have benches that they move from farm to farm each week. Their way of life, so often scorned by many, really makes a lot of sense. If you're not familiar with their beliefs, it's time you did some research. If you should decide to convert, however, then don't waste your time: one is born Amish, they do not accept converts. Nonetheless, it's worth educating oneself as to their ways.

 

Wow, a religion debate! I love reading these... some points I agree with and some I don't... let me first say I was born Catholic (the most hypocritical bunch of so-called Christians) and changed to Nihlist when I reached the age of reason. The Catholic church is nothing more than a world-wide organization with fancy buildings. If there ever was a God than he would be sickened of what the Christians have done with religion and worship.
I for one have chosen not to practice for all of the reasons previously mentioned here in this thread... People do not practice what they preach. What DO they preach? They preach non-indulgence. They preach non-possessiveness. They preach forgiveness. They preach do unto others as you would have them do unto you. They preach non-fornication. Give to your church. Its better to give than recieve. Well they preach against just about everything that a person could derive self-satisfaction from in this world. I do not derive satisfaction in giving a percentage of my hard earned income to the church! I would not be satisfied living in an empty house! I love to indulge in expensive possessions and I like to smoke and drink and women and I don't instantly forgive every person who does something to me or steals from me or lies or whatever... I pay them back! This is a dog-eat dog world. The strong shall survive. The Christian religion was created for a world more than 2000 years ago that was full of gullible, easily influenced people.
Let the religion die.
David

 

All I can say is what the man Bob Dylan said

"The Times, they are a changing"

Don't look for it to get better in the furture, now everyone wants their own rights and the gov. trys to please everyone so I seriously doubt the church will have the power it once had..

 

fisher of man said:
"as for your other question... about how should you read the Bible...How would you read the absolute truth...because that is what God's word is...it is the absolute truth..never changing."

I would put forth that to live strictly by the bible and to follow some of the laws put forth in it would not be moral, ethical OR legal.

 

Are you sure you want to go down this road? Even those that claim to believe the Bible word for word, pick and choose what is literal.

Proof? "Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you do not have eternal life with in you."

That one is literal. But many choose their way around it.

The Book of Revelation is a prime example (maybe the best one) of whether to take the bible literally or study it to fully understand it's message.