Because God didn't create man to die, he created man so that he might live. Man brings death upon man, and man brings death upon himself. If God made a flood to destroy man, it's because man brought it upon himself by rejecting his master and creator.

Honestly, if I truly (sp?) knew of his situation, I'd do all I could to get him to that funeral. Even if I didn't believe in his religious ideas, I would lend a hand in helping him. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." After I helped him, I'd probably let him know of my beliefs, but if he didn't accept them, I wouldn't frown on him and walk away. He's a man just like me. He works just like I do and maybe harder. I'm no one to criticize him for his beliefs. I am someone to let him know mine. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Yes, I do look at some other religions as rubbish. But I don't look at the people following that religion and what they need to survive as rubbish. People are equal in all races, shapes, sizes, and forms.

Who are we to know the extent of what God does? You have to take into consideration what the Earth looked like before the flood. Ok, take into consideration what evolution tells us the Earth looked like at the beginning of time. Basically, a couple of big land masses. Well, in the Bible, it talks about the flood. (ie: a storm for 40 days and nights -- water coming up out of the ground) The flood broke apart these landmasses and made what we live on today. The Bible never states what animals lived on the original land, and it never states how the species was separated. Honestly, I don't have a precise answer to this question. But that's just what I think.

First of all, who's to say that they weren't on the ark? I really have no idea. They probably weren't for all I know. I think I answered this in another thread. Ok, God created man from dirt right? What color is dirt? --black, tan, red, white, etc.-- Who's to say that God didn't create more people from dirt? God desires all people. He loves every race of people equally because he is a diverse God. Now then, these are just my views. They may be totally wrong in every aspect, but then again, you can't prove they aren't. You just gotta have faith.

 

Thank goodness because I don't either. I hate it that there are some "Christians" out there that believe they have the right to kill others because of their "religious beliefs." That makes my blood boil. People like that give other people reasons to stereotype Christianity. No Christian that I know would have ever done that. I hope he gets what he deserves.

 

Hazaaa!!!! I think we've actually reached agreement.

To summarize what you've said in your last few posts you believe that you yourself cannot enter hevan without accepting Jesus. But other belief systems may be God's way of reaching those people in a way they can relate to and are just as legitimite.

So perhaps you should say: 'I believe that I cannot enter the kingdom of God unless I have acceptet Jesus as my saviour.'

I know it's presumptious of me to put words in your mouth but it's late, I'm tired and I don't care.

Good night and God bless.

 

My contention with the idea of free will and sin and all that crap is that I'm told that God made us and wants us to be happy, yet every indication is that he puts up these hurdles and makes people suffer. What is the point of all of that? If that's true, why did he have to do it that way? Is he narcissistic?
You know, it just seems foolish to think that a god who loves his creation would allow so much suffering and hardship at the hands of men. Where's god when a child is starving to death because greedy men won't allow him to have food, as is the case in most third world countries. Does god not love those children? Why doesn't he perform miracles for them? He's making people grow gold teeth and hair, both very vain things (a deadly sin, in fact), yet he can't stop evil men from starving children? Why is that, true4.2? Does god pick and choose his miracles? Or does he only perform them for people who worship him?
I just can't buy the whole free will thing:
"Mr. Christian, does God have control over what goes on down here?"
"Why, yes, of course he does. He's God."
"Then why are millions of people starving and dying of wasting diseases, people who have devoted their faith to him?"
"Oh, well, um, that's free will. He gave us free will so that we can decide if we want to burn in hell or spend an eternity in heaven."
"Ohh, I see. So he's not really in control then?"
"No, he's in control."
"Oh, well then he must not give a "
"Basically"
BDV

 

People are starving, and dieing because we sinned against GOD. And we keep sinning, and sinning , and sinning. GOD gave His ONLY son to die on the cross for YOU and me because He loves you that much. That was the ultimate sacrafice.

This world would be perfect if we hadn't sinned. We brought it upon ourselves. GOD could just make us ALL go to Hell and suffer for eternity but He dosen't. Wouldn't you call that mercy? He gave the ULTIMATE sacrafice. Wouldn't you call that love?

After people have lived in their dark world and we show them the light, their initial reaction is denial. Once you see the light, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.

 

OHHHH! OK, I get it now! Golly, how did I ever not realize that!
So these children aren't innocent after all! They are filthy sinners just like the rest of us. OK, I get it. These kids are living lives of SIN, what with their subsistance of rice and contaminated water, I mean, even though many of them have faith, they are still punishable. I get it now. Those filthy sinner infants deserve to live in squallor and die in agony! Praise the Lord!
And I think that it's crap. Can't you see you are getting scammed?
Your preacher has convinced you that God is acting against millions of people because mankind as a whole has sinned against him? I thought God knew everybody personally...is he just too BUSY to take things up on a case by case basis? Or is he just too judgemental to care? The more you talk about how we made god punish us, the more it makes me consider your god evil and judgemental and narcissistic.
Ultimate sacrifice? His life? Dying's easy, friend, especially when you are convinced you are going to heaven. If he really loved his people he would have continued working to make things better, instead of making a symbolic sacrifice that really changed nothing.
But why am I even arguing that point? I think it's all garbage. And incidentally, this isn't denial, it's me telling you why you are wrong.
BDV

 

God has the best job in the world:

All of the credit and none of the blame.

You'll never square with me babies flying through windshields.
I distrusted religion at nine because of its inconsistencies.
There can be no rationale to explain the horrific suffering of the absolutely innocent.

And as far as "miracles", PLEASE!

 

For the record, Jesus didn't go to Heaven. He went to hell. When he went to hell he defeated Satan in hell and and took the keys to the gates of hell with him along with the prisoners of hell. After he saved those people, he went to Heaven with them. (just to show you again how God's mercy works...he didn't just die for the heck of it.) He died to set the captive free.

The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That pertains to every living person. Now of course there are going to be exceptions. People that aren't in their right mind, babies, kids that are too young to understand, etc.etc. Why do you think we have missionaries in those third world countries? They are trying to spread the gospel to those regions of the Earth, and are dying everyday for their cause. Now then, you say these kids that are dying and suffering have faith? I'm sorry, but someone in that kind of environment doesn't grow faith. It's the reverse actually. Their faith is diminished, and there isn't a lot of hope for them. I honestly don't know if God sends people like that to hell. I have no clue and neither do you. You don't know whether they believe in God or not.

You, BDV, are failing to realize the point that yes, man did sin against God. You're trying to say that if God is indeed God, why doesn't he just heal the sick all over the world and set every one free? God gives man free choice to do as he wishes. In the beginning there wasn't suffering and sin in the world. We were without disease. But like we've already said, we sinned against God, so God passed his judgment. I'm sorry that doesn't appeal to you, but that's the way it is. If you want to refuse it, go right ahead. Then God sent his son to die for you, so that you could have a way to Heaven:

Think of Jesus as a ladder. If you believe he is real and follow him, he'll lead you straight to Heaven, but if you deny his existance and choose not to follow him, you'll never make it. I'll continue this later as I have to get back to work now. I'm on a break.

 

true4.2,

That was the worst cop out of an answer I've ever read.

They have no faith and there's no hope for them? If you're the kind of Christian you claim to be, you should think long and hard about this paragraph that you typed.

Waxy

 

What about the children in America that have faith and still starve and suffer? They go to church. So what, do you just tell them "well, sorry kid, that your life is so miserable and you are in such pain. Look at the bright side, though; you just might get into heaven if you keep believing."
Waxy hit the nail on the cricifix: you did cop out. You are still not answering the basic question: if god is in control, and does nothing about the problems of the world, why should anybody believe in him in the first place? And I guess Jesus didn't do too much damage to Satan, because he rose again as well!
Christianity was created with the free will idea so that every time somebody questions why god isn't anywhere to be found on this forsaken planet, the christian can say "it's not his fault, it's YOURS" Ask a christian any tough question regarding god, and you will almost always end up with a fable followed by an explanation of the Free Will Cop Out, followed by a sales pitch to save your soul. It's predictable, onerous, and obvious to the thinking man.
I like what sinjin said about how god gets all the credit but none of the blame. Perhaps us humans should hold god accountable for his hypocrisy and bias, and politely ask him to show himself to the world. If I told you I had three legs, you would never believe me until I showed you.
So then you have the christians telling us that we have to believe in something that cannot be proven save for a storybook, and when we ask for proof, we are offered vague non-applicable examples of miracles and then told we just have to believe. Phooey! If god showed up and said "look, Velvet, here I am, now get it together," I would oblige. But he can't expect anybody to trust the christians for their word after they've lied to humanity for 2000 years, and he can't expect us to believe that a book full of stories, written by sinners, accurately represents his word.
The day I die, I hope I get to talk to god, if he exists, and ask him what really happened, and how he really feels. Because christianity is a bunch of lies being sold as absolute truth.
BDV

 

quote:
"If god showed up and said "look, Velvet, here I am, now get it together," I would oblige."

This is what Jesus Christ did for the world 2000 years ago and the world by and large did not oblige because Jesus did not fit into their idea of what a savior should be.

I am curious to know what form God would have to be in and what he would have to do for you to believe in him.

 

A big burning bush? alot of plagues? enough water to flood the world? I am getting real tired of this...so i will comment now....

p.s. BDV, I know that I find it offensive that you cannot so much as respect my religion enough to spell the words right. It is God, not gawd or god, it is bible, not bable are just some examples, even though you do not believe in him does not mean that you should disrespect other people and their beliefs in this manner, I feel this is taking it beyond a mear argument

 

gbub:

well said.

What would it take for you guys to ever believe in God? I can see that this is getting absolutely no where. We could keep going on this, but it's going to be an endless circle. I can't convince ANY of you that God exists. You simply have to believe for yourself. You ask me these impossible questions and expect some perfect answer from me? I'm a 21 year old church going Christian...not a professor in why God does what he does.

What I said was a cop out? How is that Waxy? Am I just expected to know a perfect answer to every question you guys ask? My Lord, I give you my answer and you throw it right back in my face. You're going to do it every time I answer because ultimately you don't believe and I do! How far off the original subject have we gotten here? This discussion is going absolutely no where. You know what, maybe I worded it wrong. People in other countries or our country or wherever that have to suffer like that are waaay less fortunate than I am. I feel sorry for them just like you, but just because God doesn't reach down his hand and heal every disease and fill every pocket doesn't mean jack diddley squat! I really do wish people didn't have to live like that, but there's not too much I can really do about it is there? Let me ask you this since you're so smart BDV, why are kids like that? Is it God's fault or man's? Tell me, did God reach down and strike the kids with disease all of a sudden or did they get them a different way? You are just like I said you were from the beginning. You want to blame God for everything that happens that's bad. Point proven.

Sorry son, but Satan has definately not risen. I'm not sure where you got a goofy idea like that, but you need to re-check your resources. And another thing, you've made the decision for yourself not to believe in God, so why should he show up for you? I've said this 8 million times already, it simply takes faith. If you don't want to have faith in God, then don't! I'm not trying to say you have to! I do, and when we both die I guess then we'll see who is right and who is wrong. That is ultimately the only proof you're probably ever going to get. I hate to say it, but I almost can't wait for the day when you're standing there before God and realize just how much of a waste of time Christianity is then! But at the same time it saddens my heart, that you simply refuse to believe the Creator of Earth, and the Creator of you.

 

It's a cop out because you said God loves all people, we can all be saved, and we are all under God's watchful eye, and in the next breath you said-

"Now then, you say these kids that are dying and suffering have faith? I'm sorry, but someone in that kind of environment doesn't grow faith. It's the reverse actually. Their faith is diminished, and there isn't a lot of hope for them."

They don't have faith or their faith isn't as strong as yours (you assume), so there's no hope for them and God has cast them aside? There's no hope for them at all?

So you, as the Christian you profess to be, see no hope for these kids and simply write them off as non-believers in an environment that isn't conducive to faith? How much faith in God would you have if you prayed every day and yet you suffered and died in poverty?

You don't see the irony and hypocracy in your response?

Your replies come back at you because you've used circular logic throughout this entire debate. Check out the definition and problems of circular logic. It is something that people who are attempting to support a position without facts inevitably fall into.

If God is all powerful, loves people unconditionally, and can do anything at any time, then the lives those children lead is God's fault. You want to be the supreme being? Then the buck stops at you. PERIOD.

Waxy

 

So, jimmie deene, is it now a sin to purposely use incorrect spelling? Gawd, you'd think you'd be over it by now.
Respect? Not an ounce, I guess. What difference does it make if I don't capitalize gawd?
From now on, I'll spell it gaad.
BDV