Well, instead of me giving my .02 for your questions, how about you give me your opinion:

How does a person make it to Heaven?

Scenario:

A woman is married to her husband. They are very poor and have to work very hard for the money they make. This family has no children. They wants kids very badly. They try and the woman gets pregnant. 3 months in to her pregnancy she has a miss-carriage. 2 months later the husband dies with a heart attack. He faithfully believed in God all his life. The woman can't live on her own. She has no one to turn to, and it is impossible for her to make her bills. She has absolutely no where to turn. She commits suicide. Out of the 3, who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell? (I know that might be graphic, but it more than likely happens quite often.)

These questions are based on the idea that God is definately real and his Bible is true. Now then, what do you guys think?

 

And yes, I'm all for agreeing to disagree!

 

There can be no rationale to explain the horrific suffering of the absolutely innocent.

1) Just because _you_ don't understand the rationale, doesn't mean there is not one. Our understanding is limited and doesn't define the limits of the world.

2) your role in these events is well-defined. It is *your* job to end the suffering, not God's. Maybe that's why God had created it.

What about the children in America that have faith and still starve and suffer? They go to church. So what, do you just tell them "well, sorry kid, that your life is so miserable and you are in such pain. Look at the bright side, though; you just might get into heaven if you keep believing."

Faith doesn't guarantee you happiness. In fact, it guarantees you just the opposite. Long, extended periods of deep suffering.

Expain this one: .....This man who had spent his whole life living and suffering for God (he was beaten and tortured by Communists in China) was beaten and mugged by a bunch of thugs for his grocery money, and subsequently died from the injuries. Some reward!

If you think dedication to your faith will bring you some eartly reward, you are sorely wrong. The Bible never said that, it said just the converse. Your faith will _cost_ you, and cost you a great deal. Which explains all the token Christians today. They don't want to pay the price aside from token gestures of faith.
But, your grandfather sounds like the man who lived his faith.

Then my grandmother, two years later contracted bone cancer and lived another 6 months in agonizing pain and misery. She died heartbroken and in pain. So explain to me how this was part of gods plan?

You sound surprised that pain and misery is a part of this world? How is that news?

Wait, you want _me_ to explain to you _God's_ plan? Doesn't the Bible say it is beyond the grasp of man? Having faith means having faith. Even despite the certain cost. If your faith doesn't cost you anything, it is null and void. That's the problem. We all want the faith part, the good things, without the cost.


It seems to me that reason is the highest attribute of man, and that if there can be any communication from God to man, it must be addressed to his reason.

Yes, and it has been, many times.


As an atheist I'll claim what you said and say thank you.

As far as Mother Teresa, I was raised Catholic and when I was in school we used to sing a song that went "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love, they will know...". Do you know this one?

Anyway, I would say Mother Teresa was more Christ-like(Christian) than all the "Christians" in our "bible belt" put together.



Thank you. Yes, you are right.

But, I have faith in the ressurection of New Christian Morality. It need not be this way forever. It certainly won't. Christianity will evolve. (Or degenerate back to its proper roots, if you will).


I totally agree with both of you. Christians that are absolutely dedicated to God are rare these days. But that doesn't mean that they aren't out there. I believe you Carpe when you say that people have a token christianic lifestyle. There are many people like that in this world.

That means 99% of those who claim to be Christians. Maybe more.

 

Waxy, I was reffering to Whistler's post not the entire thread. There are enough different arguments here to occupy an entire website.

As to god solving all of mankinds problems because I believe in him, the Bible says that pain and suffering are mankinds lot in life because of sin. I don't expect God to to solve all of my problems or anyone elses, I do rely on him to give me the strength to face whatever this life hands me.

 

Paul, who wrote 14 books of the Bible in the New Testiment suffered more than probably anyone for his faith. He was flogged, stoned, beaten, robbed, and eventually beheaded for believing in God. But here's what he had to say about it. He finished running the race for God. He didn't back out when the going got tough.

Jesus himself said there would be harsh persecution for believers. We know that going into the battle.

Now that, I don't believe. I'd say my church runs at about 3000 people strong. I'd say half or more then half are true devout followers of God. I'd say 10-15 percent of our church are missionaries to other countries for God. I'm not trying to say our church is better than yours or something like that, I'm just saying that 99% of the world being token seems a bit harsh.

 

carpe_diem,

I notice you haven't responded to this post of bigdmizer's.

Waxy

 

I find this somewhat amusing. On one hand you claim to not understand the rationale of God. In fact you claim we are all uable to understand the rationale of God. Yet this whole post started with your 'non-token Christianity' concept and its rationale as it applies to how one should develop a deeper relationship with God.

Which is it...one cannot understand the rationale of God, or you personally have figured out how to get on his good side?

Whistler

 

Hey! My walk has taught me that "religion" is man-made and men can, and do lie and deceive! I dont care if you are a Father, Bishop or plan ol' Preacher Man!! Why keep your eyes on someone as human as you are? As erring as you are? These people dont have any more insight into the mysteries of life than you do!! If you open your eyes to the beauty of this life, you will find that there is not one final TRUTH, there are MANY TRUTHS! Never say "I have found THE TRUTH" You're limiting yourself, man! When you can say "I have found A TRUTH" Then and only then are you living your life, taking in all that surrounds you! There are many prophets of God out there people! Just because they speak a different language than you, have different color skin than you, believe different than you, does not make them any more or less than you. We are ALL wonderful, thinking reasoning beings, able to filter what works for us and what doesnt! Been to church, this one, that one, the other one, and ya know, its all about some dude interpreting the Bible the way he sees it. Sorry, Im not a sheep! You are definately entitled to your opinions. I REALLY BELIEVE that this world could use A LOT more tolerance! Awright! Thats enough! My Dad taught me to treat people the way that I want to be treated, and I gotta tell ya if ya do it, and live it, it seems that everything else seems to follow. Oh, yeah, and ya GOTTA love yourself before you can love anyone else!! Wheewwwwwww!!!!!!

 

No, that is one just one piece of my entire belief system. I said,"God's refusal to take the high road is a glaring inconsistency with the portriat of a merciful and just God." Portrait is the key word. The manner in which we interpret God is the real problem. Not God himself.

Whistler

 

carpe_diem,

I meant there's no rationale I am willing to accept.

Obviously there is one and you have no problem with it.

I on the other hand could never worship a being capable of allowing such cruelty. If your God won't even protect innocent babies, why would he care about any of us.

There's a scripture that can be used to justify almost anything.

2000 years is plenty of time to anticipate just about any objection.

As far as beyond our understanding, damn straight.

 

God is just in that when we die we will recieve what we deserve.

He is merciful because he sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we don't have to face what we really deserve if we believe in him and ask him into our hearts.

This old life is tough for believers and non-believers alike, the Bible states very plainly that life is the way it is because of sin and it won't get any better while we are in this world.

 

gdub--

I admire the strength of your faith. I just cannot see it the same as you. The way you describe how God operates makes no sense to me and I cannot believe things that make absolutely no sense.

Whistler

 

Whistler,

It is hard to understand how God works, I don't understand most of it myself but the first step toward understanding is making that leap beyond human reasoning and accepting that what Jesus offers us is real. It's an extremely tough thing to do, it goes beyond our comprehension. I have seen too many lives changed to ever doubt that salvation through Christ is real. I pray that you will someday reach the same conclusion.

 

gdub--

I appreciate your concern. I have one question for you though, is there any other way to obtain salvation besides through Jesus? Cause if there is, I might be interested in knowing more about that.

Whistler

 

Look all of you, I am a devout follower of Christ and there is nothing in this world that could convince me that he is not the Son of God, but all this jabber is getting kind of tiresome so here it is. There is absolutely no hard concrete proof that God exists, because to acknowledge God you have to go beyond the relm of science and reason. However, there is not one shred of evidence that God does not exist. People claim the state of the world is evidence, but there is no justification for such a statement. If you are looking for hard evidence of God's existence, I am looking for hard evidence that he doesn't exist, because everything I have heard today is circumstantial and has been said before and now it's becoming circular. Come to me with PROOF. NOT assumption.