Just another "impossible" build
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2012
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Nobody has, and I doubt that anyone ever will. Here's why:
It's WAY harder to make software shift a TorqShift than a 4R100, due to the design of the two transmissions.
The 4R100 is an all non-synchronous design. This means that for each upshift all that happens is a clutch is applied. All you need to do is control the pressure to the oncoming clutch and you're all set.
The TorqShift is MUCH more complicated. The 1-2 and 5-6 shifts are the same, they are non-synchronous and all you need to do is control the pressure of the OD clutch. The other shifts are the problem.
The 2-3 is a swap shift. This is a special catagory of difficult shift. I believe Ford is the only trans maker in the world that still does swap shifts. Others have put swap shift transmissions in production and then replaced them within a few years. To make a swap shift the TorqShift needs to release the OD clutch to downshift the OD gearset while applying the intermediate clutch to upshift the Simpson planetary gearset. This is an upshift and a downshift occuring at the same time in the same trans. From my experience these two shifts MUST complete within 30 milliseconds of each other or it's going to feel awful. If the OD releases too soon the engine speed will flare. The amount of flare is dependant on how much sooner it completes. If it completes before the intermediate has enough capacity the trans goes back to first gear! Then it has to make a 1-3 shift. A few WOT 1-3 shifts means the trans comes out to replace the intermediate clutch. Been there, done that. If the OD releases after the intermediate comes on you end up in 4th gear (1.09:1 ratio) then downshift back to third gear (1.54:1 ratio.) Either way it's really bad.
Now if you made it though that you need to make a 3-5 shift. 4th gear is the 1.09:1 ratio that really isn't used. The 3-5 is a synchronous shift. It's timing requirements are about the same as the swap shift, but there is no downshift. To make the shift the intermediate clutch has to release while the direct clutch applies. If the intermediate releases too soon you get an engine speed flare. If the intermediate releases too late you get a tie up. A tie up is when all three pieces of the planetary gear set are held from turning. This means the output shaft of the trans STOPS. That's not a pleasant thing to have happen when you're at WOT making a 3-5 shift. You can lock the wheels on an upshift! I've done this, too. You can also break expen$ive parts doing a tie up.
Now start thinking of the combination shifts that can happen. How about cruising at 55 MPH behind some slow poke on a two lane road? A passing zone opens and you floor it. Now you may want to go from 6th to 3rd gear. You need to release the direct clutch and apply the intermediate. That's a synchronous shift in reverse.
As you can see from just these few examples it isn't a trivial task to make one of these transmissions shift. It's what I did at Ford for quite a few years, three of them working on the TorqShift. I'd be really surprised if anyone makes a controller for the TorqShift that works really well. I think someone could make one that does some basic shifting, but getting one so that it shifts at least as well as a stock trans is going to be a HUGE task.
-Mark Kovalsky
PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum - View Single Post - 4R100 to a 5R110
thats old though.back in '08.
id like to hear more about the adapters and the controllers.this is all news to me.
It's WAY harder to make software shift a TorqShift than a 4R100, due to the design of the two transmissions.
The 4R100 is an all non-synchronous design. This means that for each upshift all that happens is a clutch is applied. All you need to do is control the pressure to the oncoming clutch and you're all set.
The TorqShift is MUCH more complicated. The 1-2 and 5-6 shifts are the same, they are non-synchronous and all you need to do is control the pressure of the OD clutch. The other shifts are the problem.
The 2-3 is a swap shift. This is a special catagory of difficult shift. I believe Ford is the only trans maker in the world that still does swap shifts. Others have put swap shift transmissions in production and then replaced them within a few years. To make a swap shift the TorqShift needs to release the OD clutch to downshift the OD gearset while applying the intermediate clutch to upshift the Simpson planetary gearset. This is an upshift and a downshift occuring at the same time in the same trans. From my experience these two shifts MUST complete within 30 milliseconds of each other or it's going to feel awful. If the OD releases too soon the engine speed will flare. The amount of flare is dependant on how much sooner it completes. If it completes before the intermediate has enough capacity the trans goes back to first gear! Then it has to make a 1-3 shift. A few WOT 1-3 shifts means the trans comes out to replace the intermediate clutch. Been there, done that. If the OD releases after the intermediate comes on you end up in 4th gear (1.09:1 ratio) then downshift back to third gear (1.54:1 ratio.) Either way it's really bad.
Now if you made it though that you need to make a 3-5 shift. 4th gear is the 1.09:1 ratio that really isn't used. The 3-5 is a synchronous shift. It's timing requirements are about the same as the swap shift, but there is no downshift. To make the shift the intermediate clutch has to release while the direct clutch applies. If the intermediate releases too soon you get an engine speed flare. If the intermediate releases too late you get a tie up. A tie up is when all three pieces of the planetary gear set are held from turning. This means the output shaft of the trans STOPS. That's not a pleasant thing to have happen when you're at WOT making a 3-5 shift. You can lock the wheels on an upshift! I've done this, too. You can also break expen$ive parts doing a tie up.
Now start thinking of the combination shifts that can happen. How about cruising at 55 MPH behind some slow poke on a two lane road? A passing zone opens and you floor it. Now you may want to go from 6th to 3rd gear. You need to release the direct clutch and apply the intermediate. That's a synchronous shift in reverse.
As you can see from just these few examples it isn't a trivial task to make one of these transmissions shift. It's what I did at Ford for quite a few years, three of them working on the TorqShift. I'd be really surprised if anyone makes a controller for the TorqShift that works really well. I think someone could make one that does some basic shifting, but getting one so that it shifts at least as well as a stock trans is going to be a HUGE task.
-Mark Kovalsky
PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum - View Single Post - 4R100 to a 5R110
thats old though.back in '08.
id like to hear more about the adapters and the controllers.this is all news to me.
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2012
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I will post pics of the traction bars, you know you really want a pair, just drop a couple hundred and I can put your order in! But there are no plates, I am having on made, reusing the c6 flexplate but beefing it it up, big time. I'm estimating $1500-$1700 for the 5r110 driving down the road done. The trans I found on Craigslist, which I also thought was a steal. I was guessing $2500 for just a built 4r to do what the 5r will do stock.
Thread Starter
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Senior User
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you have in your possession a fully functioning 4wd 5r110 transmission that you scored for $400? how did you manage that one?
your estimating a total of $2500 to have a 5r110 trans mated,installed,fully functioning in an idi truck?
how old are you and your old man arps?
your estimating a total of $2500 to have a 5r110 trans mated,installed,fully functioning in an idi truck?
how old are you and your old man arps?
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 282
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you have in your possession a fully functioning 4wd 5r110 transmission that you scored for $400? how did you manage that one?
your estimating a total of $2500 to have a 5r110 trans mated,installed,fully functioning in an idi truck?
how old are you and your old man arps?
your estimating a total of $2500 to have a 5r110 trans mated,installed,fully functioning in an idi truck?
how old are you and your old man arps?
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,395
Likes: 864
From: Mi'kma'ki
Austin,my advice (take if you will,up to you) tell your dad to sell the 5r (it's likely just a core @ $400.i wouldn't expect it to actually work) and have a hd e40d/4r100 built.she'll handle anything you guys build with the idi platform,rest assured.
either way,best of luck.
either way,best of luck.
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2012
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Not to be snobby, I consider myself one of the more responsible teenagers I know, but this is my build, my dad hates diesels, he helped with the restoration, other than that he's out, no funding, only help if I need help holding something up, or on that route. It's a full trans with only 50k, with the converter, the 5r is way cheaper, stronger and just as much work, besides I have to make an adapter plate, where I wouldn't with the 4r/e4od, everything else, the same. To build those two trans to hold 800+ ftlbs would be outrageous. In my opinion, totally worth it.
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,941
Likes: 32
From: Maple Valley, WA
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Tuned
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 485
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From: Boise Idaho
A 5r110 bolted to an idi? Sounds just crazy enough to work. I considered the torqueshift and an allison 1000 series as swap options but went with the simpler 4r100. If you can make it work than more power to you. Sounds like you know what you are doing, and at 16 you are a better welder than I am so proceed and good luck to you. And don't listen to those naysayers. They talk smack about an idi project but it's alright for them to put ten grand into a truck that can already match the space shuttle and is nearly as complicated.
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2012
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Ok so would anyone be interested in my turbo cal pump from dps? It has 6000 miles on it currently not sure how much I would want for it, but shoot me a pm with an offer I guess, I'm not 100% sure yet, but I am pretty sure I want to sell it.
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,399
Likes: 188
From: Norco,CA
Glad you came over here to post. Diesel Power magazine just put an article out for guys and suppliers building IDI diesel trucks. Seems they mit start running articles every six months or so on the builds. One guy asked and was putting out 275 rwhp and we have more guys here that put out more. Racin & Russ you mit want to check into it.
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,941
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From: Maple Valley, WA
I figured if there is enough interest in the IDI for DP to be running articles on it, that they would be looking for suppliers to sponsor their ventures... I havent been contacted yet, but there will be something here soon in DP that will be worth noting.... That being said, its only a matter of time...
