Originally Posted by ALEXVB22

I don't know if you would call it a scam but I bought the book from runyourcaronwater.com or something similar... its there competitor...

N e how.. it was just an E-Book that was hard as hell to follow. I took many engineering courses through out high school and what not and let me Tell you... the stuff they are proposing is ridiculously hard to follow and can be built for MUCH less and in a better way. Furthermore, they never told me how to hook it up to a 6.0 diesel... lol or any diesel for that matter. It was just a bunch of references for who to call and what to order. And you did the rest of the leg work. Like if you wanna find out how to hook it up to your vehicle click here.. and its a number. Then it tells you to call and ask. And the place doesn't even know cuz they only deal with gas... I was a little angry with it really.

But, I can;t speak for that website but i hear they are similar and well, they are. If it one thing you need to do its your own due diligence on the subject.

Check out Yahoo forums for HHO. Hydroxide. Water for gas. Bob Boyce.... things that pertain to the matter and you'll find SOOOO much info you could spend literally yrs reading it all.

They all work basically the same. The safest method being using electrolysis to Separate water molecules into HH and O (2 hydrogens, 1 Oxygen atom). Hence the name hydroxy gas.

So in doing so you end up with a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. the concept is that you then inject that gas into the intake of you vehicle. Sounds simple but it isn't.

Getting the HHO gas is EASY! But getting it to run your truck... thats hard.

First let talk about the getting it to supplement your fuel for a more complete burn so your not thowing 20% of you fuel that you paid for out the tail end (well to the Cat to be burnt so you have good emissions). With older carborated cars... its easy they say... Because there arnt o2 sensors telling a PC to add or remove fuel. So that would be easy to use it on and get great results. Problem with Fuel injected engine with EFIEs on em' lik our newer trucks is once we add that hydroxy gas into our inlet the Pc recognizes that as more oxygen getting to the engine. So it adds more fuel, completely diminishing the positive characteristics of adding it in the first place. (at least from what I have read this is what I got out it all. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone)

there are way to trick the o2 sensors and what not. But, well I'm not that far yet so I couldn't tell ya.

But to have it run completely off HHO gas (by the way HHO gas and Hydroxy are the same thing), you'll need a very very large amount of HHO gas being generated at an instant. This is very hard. I think Bob Boyce's 101 plate design is the highest output of HHO gas generation I have seen yet. 60 liters per min. Thats enough gas to fill a 2 liter bottle every second. That can not suffice as enough fuel to run our 6.0's much less 7.3 and what have you. It is however enough to run motorcycles, and very small beater cars...

And if all this is true why doesn't everyone do... um um.. to much $$$ to be made in oil right at the moment and um um an oil Pres maybe... Don't really know so I couldn't tell you.

But the guy to really invent it and actually have a working HHO gas Buggy took it all the way and was in supreme court with some big oil comps.. sadly he was murdered by poison shortly after. Says a little something huh?

Good Luck,
Alex

Originally Posted by LastSplash

I believe the MPG claims on the web for these HHO systems are due to the O2 sensor relocation kits that you install. The HHO websites tell you that you have to play with the O2 sensors so the PCM does not compensate for the addition of the Hydrogen, in reality by moving the O2 sensors you are causing the O2 sensor to send a false reading to the PCM which forces the PCM to lean out the fuel/air mixture which will increase power and raise MPG at the expense of running the engine warmer and possibly burning valves.

Originally Posted by AG4.0

I recently bought a kit to try out on my wife's 01 Windstar. I paid for $40 plus another $20 or so for electrical and plumbing parts to get it hooked up plus the O2 sensor extenders. It consistantly has consistantly gotten 16 MPG driving the kids to daycare and then to work. I see this as low risk because I know that even if it doesn't work, I can sell the kit on ebay for what I paid for it, maybe more. One thing I have noticed that stands out to me that makes this seem different from the Tornado and Magnets and other junk out there is that I can't find anyone that has actually tried the thing that is saying it is a scam. The only people that are saying bad things about it are people that haven't tried it. You can build one of these things for under $40 easily yourself. All you need is some sort of container that holds about a quart, some SS for the electodes (people are using bolts, wire or plates, 304 or 316 SS are recomended) tubing and fittings to tap into a vaccuum line and the intake tube, and the wiring with a fuse to hook it up with. If you are running EFI, you will need O2 sensor extenders as well to move the pre cat sensors out of the exhaust stream or else it will richen the mixture when it senses too much O2 in the exhaust with this setup.

I am skeptical of these as well, but I will not come out and blindly say they do not work. I figure it's worth a shot. Unfortunately though, because it is in my wife's vehicle, any results will not be very scientific because we rarely fill the thing full. Her mileage is based solely off of the computer, which has been accurate the two or three times we have hand calculated it. The next step is to put one in my vehcile (93 festiva(yes I drive a festiva and want to get even better mileage.)) I will be able to keep better track of any results with mine as I keep a running spreadsheet with all my fill up records. I just figured it would be best to try it on the vehicle that gets the worst mileage first.

With the Windstar it has only been one day. I took a short 4 mile test drive through town with it and the computer was saying 22 MPG (which is better than it would normally get on the highway), however after I reset it so that it would be soley for my wife's driving, a trip to the grocery store and back said 13 MPG. The battery was unplugged for the install so the computer has some relearning to do so it's way too soon to make any conclusions but that 22MPG did show some promise. It does seem to be running a bit quieter as it had started to develop a knocking noise that has already seemed to go away. This could be due to the steaming action of the water cleaning it out a bit. The only thing I can say as of right now is that the CEL stayed off this time after unplugging the battery. Any other time I have unplugged it, it has been back on withing a few minutes of the first start. I want to give it a couple weeks before I make any opinions about it.

I will post any results I get as they come along, but I ask that people do keep an open mind and if you don't believe that it works, do what I'm doing and try to prove that it doesn't work before you come out and proclaim your engineering expertise to us. If you have such an engineering background, then you ought to be able to build a pretty good system to try out. These things do put out a good amount of gas, so if you build a system and it doesn't bubble (like the one on Mythbusters) then I guarantee you that it won't work.

I do understand the 1st law of thermodynamics. Water4Gas never proclaims that you can run a vehicle strictly off of the HHO. They claim that it enhances the combustion of petroleum fuels and increases the efficancy of the combustion process. Who knows what is really going on in there with it, but at least I will know first hand if it works or not.

-Adam

Originally Posted by LastSplash

Where do you have to move the O2 sensors to? I am curious what the results would be if someone performed all of the other modifications except add the HHO generator. Another thing I am wondering is if the vehicle will pass an emissions inspection/test with the O2 sensors moved.

Originally Posted by 18vtx00

the idea is to displace the lean condition w/ HHO so it reality it should be at stociometric when all it said and done.
I have not installed on yet so I cannot say, but I have done tons of research and reading lately. So you are saying that if someone just moved the oxygen sensors from the exhaust out a 1/2" it would gain mileage and power? So the HHO is a waste of time and effort since the O2 location is the real trick? I would have to try that as an experiment while monitoring the PIDS.

Originally Posted by LastSplash

Now you are starting to see the light!!
The HHO kits supply a small amount of usable Hydrogen the exact amount that enters your engine is an unknown because the Hydrogen is unmetered and as a result the PCM has no idea the Hydrogen is present, the PCM adjusts the fuel injector pulses to maintain stioc, as measured by the O2 sensors which are normally in direct contact with the exhaust gasses, by removing the O2 sensor from the exhuast flow you create a condition where the O2 sensor sees more O2 than there really is, this causes the PCM to lean the engine out which burns less fuel and can increase power at the expense of a hotter engine and burnt valves.
I have seen first hand the effects of running an engine to lean. I ride snow machines in the mountains and there are times that you need to re-jet the carbs due to temperature or elevation gains, a few years ago I leaned the engine out while up in the mountains on the way back to the trucks the temp dropped 40 degrees and I dropped 3500' of elevation I figured I could make it without re-jetting but I was wrong the engine siezed about 2 miles from the truck.

Originally Posted by LastSplash

I also have done some research on these HHO kits and I came to the conclusion that I would never put one on any engine that I had to depend on but I would try one if I had a car to experiment on.
Seeing that you are tinkering with the HHO kits maybe you could conduct an experiment that would clarify a lot about these kits. The first part would be to only move the O2 sensors like the HHO kits specify and run the vehicle like that and calculate the MPG for that modification, then install the HHO generator/injection components and see if there is any MPG increase.

Originally Posted by Blue50F-1

It works. Period.

I don't know what it might do to the engine long term, but it works. I've seen the improvement myself on a family member's 88 Ranger running a 2.8 with 5spd. This was my grandfather's truck before he died and has consistently gotten 28mpg. My uncle has it now, is a mechanic, and has installed the simple mason jar type unit. Since installing it two months ago we have consistently gotten 39mpg.

I've got nothing to gain by sharing this info. In fact I'm sure some of you who are dead set against these things will jump all over me. But for those of you out there who are hurting at the pump, I'm willing to be one more voice saying, "Give it a shot. It worked for us."

As soon as I get my merc's motor broke in and a baseline on the mpg with it I will be installing a multicell unit on it. Anyone who pm's me will get my results once I get mine in.


Convinced,
James

Originally Posted by AG4.0

I'm not trying to call you out Ken, I have too much respect for you and I'm not trying to make a case either way, but I have not seen one person come out and show factual data that these don't work either.