Lean mixtures increase the likelihood of pre-ignition or detonation, which then would increase temperatures as a result of the detonation. In normal combustion, peak temperatures occur at mixtures slightly richer than stoichiometric ratio and decrease as the mixture is either enriched or enleaned from that point.

 

[quote=projectSHO89;7061249]Well, duh! Why would they make an investment now if there wasn't a VERY good chance it would be profitable later? I wouldn't with my money....


There is no "CHANCE" about it. It isn't just about profit. My point was more geared to controlling distribution, therefore, controlling price...you know....manipulation?! If you believe that isn't happening uninsert your head.
What if (not saying it does) there was some validity to the hydrogen enhancing the combustion cycle somehow resulting in significant gains in mileage? Do you have any idea the ramifications of that?
Imagine a process that could be built with "off the shelf" products that reduced fuel consumption by just 10%. What would a 10% reduction in demand do to oil futures or better yet TAXES. How much tax revenue would be lost on something any regular Joe can piece together on a kitchen table. If it works, even a little, THEY would be scared because they couldn't control it. In Europe they are punishing those who would make their own fuel...why? Taxes!

The powers that be won't have the general population running around producing their own energy.

If propane works...I do not understand why this couldn't work. I know, I know law of thermodynamics. Perhaps it is a pipe dream...or maybe, everything isn't so black and white. There just may be a possiblity of manipulating a round hole to accommodate a square peg...unless you are unwilling to try. I think it deserves more attention, to include testable theories, hypothesis, yada, yada, yada. But do you really believe our own government fund/test/create something that would literally cut their own funding...significantly...if it happened to work???

Doubtful

 

Okay, I'm new to this thread ... haven't posted much since joining ... not Albert Einstein and probably thought the "law of thermodynamics" had to do with how my wife looks in thermal underwear, but I do have a question or two and perhaps an observation:

A. Is it possible to add a gas or substance to the intake of a diesel or gasoline burning engine and increase efficiency of the engine by obtaining a more "complete" burn of the primary fuel? Isn't that why some folks add propane, cng or NOS to their intake? ... remember, I'm not Albert

B. If adding certain fuels to the primary fuel during combustion allows more efficient use of the primary fuel, then is it possible that adding hydrogen and oxygen to the primary fuel mixture would also increase engine efficiency? Again, I'm not Albert, just regular Joe Hick Redneck Beer Drinker, tinkerer in garage, non-professor of physics (did I even spell physics right?), non-engineer, non-lifetime dedicated to the study of vehicle propulsion methods, non-oil company hater, non-oil company lover, non-government conspiracy theorist, non-thinker that the government always has my best interests in mind, and no, I do NOT put cream in my coffee because this violates the "Man" code along with urination whilst sitting down... and so does using the word 'whilst'...

I have to say that I have read this entire debate in part because I enjoy a good debate, but I would have enjoyed it more if it were perhaps a little more respectful? Is it possible for us exchange ideas in a positive atmosphere? In other words ... CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG MAN?!?!

But alas, I digress. I do find some of the comments to be quite humorous. I find it interesting that some of you on both sides can be so passionate about your belief in or disbelief in whether or not these "HHO Generator" systems actually work, that you would actually resort to insults and derogatory comments which I believe will only polarize both sides and close the partially open minds.

Okay, now for those who will take exception to this reply ... go ahead, speak your mind. I have broad shoullders and thick skin. Besides, someone with my lack of learnin' probably ain't edumacated enough to know when he's bein' insulted anyway, so please ... let me be your lightning rod of hate.

Thanks,

jtuck5187

 

well put......

 

The ICE is already burning more than 99% of the fuel supplied on a properly maintained example. That isn't where opportunities for efficiency improvements reside. Since most inefficiency is due to thermal loss or from friction, improving the efficiency of the burn process offers little opportunity for improvement.


NOS is added to the intake steam to BOOST fuel usage and power, not increase fuel economy or efficiency.

Steve

 

Thanks for the explanation and reply! I guess I don't understand though: If the internal combustion engine completely burns 99% of the fuel supplied, then how does NOS boost fuel usage? By utilizing the other 1% of fuel? Or is it an additional fuel that adds additional combustion which adds additional power / heat? I have never really put too much thought into how Nitrous Oxide works in the engine...

However, I think I understand how forced induction works, and in that case, if I understand it correctly, the additional Oxygen acts as additonal fuel. Is this correct?

And (back to the debate), is the "HHO Gas" generated by these gizmos being homebuilt or commercially made enough to add fuel for additional combustion and power or is it that they increase the usable fuels in an intake charge so little that any addtional benefit is negligible?

Also, if most of the inefficiency of the ICE is that it turns most of the energy into heat (like incandescent bulb vrs LED), then has anyone developed a method to harness the heat energy rather than just blowing it out of the exhaust pipe or dissapating (sp) it through the radiator and heater core?

FWIW, I have no formal training on vehcle repair. I am what you would call a "shadetree" mechanic, having worked on just about every aspect of my vehicles since I was in my teens, ahem ... a few years ago. My professional background is in electrical (airfield mostly) and electronics. I do really enjoy performing my own maintenance and like to find projects that will make my land barge (aka "Excursion) more useful and practical. This forum has really given me some ideas! Thanks guys!

 

It is a simple idea and it is sound in theory but application is hard. You have to remember the experiment in school, electrodes and water and a battey, you catch the oxygen hydrogen mix in a tube and when you introduce a spark poof, water vapor. but it took energy to separate the atoms of hydrogen and water. And to make a gasoline engine more efficient you need a bunch fast. And what happens when you have too pure a mix in your manifold?

 

How does propane improve gas mileage?

 

NO2 is split apart by heat and pressure, which gives more O2 to react with a greater amount of fuel than normal induction. More oxygen + more fuel = more power, much like pressure charging. The NO2 by itself won't add any power, it will just make for a lean mixture unless fuel is proportionally increased.

The oxygen itself isn't a fuel, but combine that additional oxygen with additional fuel and the same thing happens as with the NO2 example I wrote just above.

I would say this would be accurate. Add to that the efficiency loss in each step (fuel to heat, heat to shaft work, shaft work to another (alternator) shaft, alternator shaft work to electric work, electric work to water to make hydrogen, then hydrogen back to the engine) and there's a net energy loss since more energy cannot be harnessed from the mechanism that created that same energy.

A turbocharger is one example of harnessing some of the waste energy in the exhaust.

 

See this thread: Engine & fuel engineering - Propane enrichment for diesels for insight.

There are several other threads on that forum that also cover issues raised in this thread.

 

Right at the end of the great era of huge aviation piston engines there were a few compound engine designs, they tried to optimize the engines by using a special turbo charger that added to the horspower of the engine mechanically like a turboprop and utilizing the thrust for maximum efficiency. there were also designs in the works to further develop diesels for aircraft use using the same technology(the deltec was developed from an aviation design) But the advent of jets, turbofans and turboprops killed most of those developments. Water injection was also interesting but mostly only fully useful in high performance applications and some serious turbo charge designs. I have seen a high performance diesel that used propane and water injection but the water was injected in front of the turbo to help cool the air charge even more.

 

I've been reading this thread with interest. In fact I've been experimenting with my own generator in my garage. No, I haven't installed it in my car yet.

The main reason I'm posting, other than to subscribe, is someone mentioned pages back, I'm not going to to look for it again, that if this idea worked then why hasn't someone opened a real business with a store front (paraphrased). Well, someone did. I heard an interview on the radio this morning with the owner of this business. Of course he said the technology works. I have personally seen this business as I've driven by. Here is the link for the business site: www.yourwater2gas.com

I'm not saying it works or doesn't, so don't shoot the messenger.

I just wanted to provide information that was 'requested', since I saw the business and wanted to subscribe to this page.

 

If this idea had really worked, you'd see them in cars as factory installed equipment!

Gasoline prices are very low now due to the recession but they are guaranteed to rise, the only question is when, and how far, so 'mpg' is now the name of the game. So, if any one of these gizmo cloud increase mpg as claimed, why would car makers invest millions into mpg related R&D?!?

As for having a B&M storefront, I guess they figured they could scam the fools easier that way.

And to reiterate a previous point, increasing output (HP) is relatively easy -- just cram in more fuel and oxygen. But increasing efficiency is much-much harder.

 

I love reading this debate. I will say this really does work and can improve gas mileage. Now the biggest problem is getting the thing to start to work. First off i started with the water4gas jar design. Im sorry but you would need to make 20 of these things put them in series to make enough gas to run my 02 dodge ram with a 4.7l engine to even get enough HHO gas to even make a dent. I then found some other designs and i went with a clear cell from hydrogengarage.com. I bought 2 of these units and put them in series and was able to make enough gas to fill up a ballon which i then threw into an open fire and this make a nice little explosion. (Yes i had saftey equipment on when doing the ballon in the fire). Now im makeing enough HHO to put into the truck. My truck had a cool air intake and staights from the CAT back. Now i hooked up the HHO and put the gas from the CELLS straight into my Air intake. Piece of cake since the cells fit perfectly where my airbox used to be. Now for the tricky part. I had to run wire down to my first in line O2 sensor and splice into the ground and the signal wire. Then i had a EFIE device in the cab where i had to monitor with a voltmeter and then subtract or add voltage to the signal wire to trick the PCM to think that it was getting less oxygen in the exhaust then what it really was. (The EFIE had a warm up time to burn more fuel during engine warm up so the engine was warmed up properly before leaning out the mixture). Once i had that installed Which took a good 5 hourse not including setup and testing of the cells i was off for a test drive. first run with the cell i only saw maybe 10% improvement in my gas mileage. Second run after getting the cells more conditioned and changed out the water (like your suppose to after 20 hours of conditioning) i was able to lean my mixture more and was able to get between 15-20% improvment. only issue was once it got really cold i had to make my mixture richer due to the extreme cold of feb. and was only getting 5-10% improvement in gas mileage. Now i could have added Resisters and other devices to my truck to change Timing and to make the engine think it was getting more fuel from the Mass Air Flow sensor or Throttle Body Sensor but didnt have the time to mess with it. Also found that if i wanted to lean out my mixture anymore i would have had to get another Clear cell to add to the mixture or get one that produced more HHO gas. Final statement HHO works as additive to gas. I never messed with getting it totally on HHO dont have the time or money to do it. Also it sucks driving and checking gages and turning **** to make sure everything is running right. Works but not user friendly unless you like doing that.

 

Wow these things and statements make me think of that movie chitty chitty bang bang.

sorry not ment rudely thats just the way i see it.

kewing 75 can you show us pics of your set up?