Group Tech Article Input - Welding
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Oromocto NB
Dam it, I'm using an aftermarket panel, but I already tact the panel on tonight!! I'm committed now. I had to use the welder on low and I found by pulsing (clicking the trigger on and off) the weld I could make a really nice, small bead with out blowing through.
So am I going to have a problem? What is the problem?
So am I going to have a problem? What is the problem?
Thread Starter
|
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
I am no expert - not by a long shot. The problem we saw was when someone tried to weld an old 1018 piece into a new style Fender. You are welding the same steel together.
I understand hi-carbon steel is harder to weld - but if it is working for you then I would be tempted to continue. It is still steel, and your tach welds are holding.
I expect they recomend glue to avoid overheating and stretching the joint.
Wish I could give you a better answer - it is just that not very many of us have any experance with the new stuff.
I understand hi-carbon steel is harder to weld - but if it is working for you then I would be tempted to continue. It is still steel, and your tach welds are holding.
I expect they recomend glue to avoid overheating and stretching the joint.
Wish I could give you a better answer - it is just that not very many of us have any experance with the new stuff.
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Oromocto NB
Yeah it seems to be going good, but I never welded sheet metal befor only thick thicker stuff so I only assume all is well. I find it easy to blow through but from what I read thats a common problem when working with sheet metal, thus the shorter bead runs at a time.
Any tips on welding sheet medal I should know about? Voltage? Wire speed?
Equipment I'm using - Miller 135 mig and 023 wire.
Thanks for the help.
Any tips on welding sheet medal I should know about? Voltage? Wire speed?
Equipment I'm using - Miller 135 mig and 023 wire.
Thanks for the help.
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
Likes: 1
From: New Mexico
Steel bodies today
The steel in vehicles used today is not really any one thing. And, if it were only high carbon the welding wouldn't be an issue. Body panels are HSS High Strength Steel that also has galvanizing and some proprietary alloy composition so it won't weld well, it won't body solder/lead either. So much of it today is glued together. Rotsa ruck with a panel that has been stamped for an old body but was done so out of mystery steel. Some of the offset, rivet and adhesive techniques might work better.
Thread Starter
|
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
Originally Posted by Bdox
How about brazing or silver solder? Will they work?
Dffay, thanks for the information on the type of steel - is the same steel used in all cars, or do different companies use different mixes?
"Body panels are HSS High Strength Steel that also has galvanizing and some proprietary alloy composition so it won't weld well,"
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
3 Best / 3 Worst Parts of Modern Ford Ownership
Brett Foote
10 Amazing Upgrades That Solve Common Ford Truck Owner Headaches
Pouria Savadkouei
Every 2026 Ford Engine Explained
Brett Foote
10 Ugly Ford Trucks That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalyptic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
DON'T braze body work!!!! Fillers and paint do not adhere to brass well and will eventually fail.
Most "silver" solders contain little to no silver but are an allow of nickle, copper, and other metals, basically a white colored brass with the same problems as yellow brass.
Most "silver" solders contain little to no silver but are an allow of nickle, copper, and other metals, basically a white colored brass with the same problems as yellow brass.
Last edited by AXracer; Mar 10, 2006 at 12:09 PM.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 28,609
Likes: 18
From: Lake Tahoe, Nevada
How about ordinary 50-50 solder? I have used a lot of lead on old cars without problems.
It is low temp so warping is not too much of a problem if you are careful about heat application.
Would it be different on the newer metals?
What kind of glues are we talking about? Is it something special?
It is low temp so warping is not too much of a problem if you are careful about heat application.
Would it be different on the newer metals?
What kind of glues are we talking about? Is it something special?
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
Solder is fine as a filler if tinned properly, but 50-50 is getting difficult to obtain these days, but it is not structurally strong enough to use to bond panels. Yes, these are specially designed glues just for body work, and if applied properly are as stong as welding. Most of the body panels on new cars and even jet airplanes are glue bonded these days.
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Oromocto NB
Update
Ok the welding was no problem, though I did get some warping. Didn't really have a lot of heat, think it was caused more my shrinkage. Was able to fix some of it as a ment by hammering but wasn't really sure if I has hammering correctly, I used a metal block behind the weld and hammered on the front of the weld.
The guys here are really impressed they think it looks great, better than they could do, but thats all because I took my time and got some good information on how to do it correctly.
I guess I'm a bit dissapointed with the warping, a little fill will clean it up but I was hoping for better, perhaps I will try and glue the the other side. This way I've tried both.
But again I have to say the beads are really nice, if not for the warping. Oh well for my first time I guess its ok. Looks better than the rust holes that were there.
Thank guys for the advice and sorry for highjacking your forum with this newer stuff.. LOL
Ok the welding was no problem, though I did get some warping. Didn't really have a lot of heat, think it was caused more my shrinkage. Was able to fix some of it as a ment by hammering but wasn't really sure if I has hammering correctly, I used a metal block behind the weld and hammered on the front of the weld.
The guys here are really impressed they think it looks great, better than they could do, but thats all because I took my time and got some good information on how to do it correctly.
I guess I'm a bit dissapointed with the warping, a little fill will clean it up but I was hoping for better, perhaps I will try and glue the the other side. This way I've tried both.
But again I have to say the beads are really nice, if not for the warping. Oh well for my first time I guess its ok. Looks better than the rust holes that were there.
Thank guys for the advice and sorry for highjacking your forum with this newer stuff.. LOL
Thread Starter
|
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
With the questions ask by bossind, and the statement on HSS by Dffay I was bit by the curiosity bug. I spent the day researching the new type steel.
I found that it is indeed a problem to the darksiders, and those who wish to repair the newer trucks. While you need a degree in advanced molecular chemistry to understand it all, basically the formula for steel has changed. Worse, many different formulas are used - even different in different parts of the same vehicle.
Each formula has different welding and working characteristics - and some may be damaged by the heat of welding. I guess this makes sense as the manufacture's are recommending parts be glued together rather than welded.
I have long intended to scab the rear tail light assembly and tailgate from a '87 ford onto my '59, now I will have to reconsider just how to do this. I would not want to be going down the road and have my rear sheetmetal fall off.
I wrote a page up on what I found, and will include it as a sidebar in the article. I have posted that page on my website, please read it and post any corrections/questions/additions you may have.
http://www.old-fords.com/New%20Steel.htm
Thanks
I found that it is indeed a problem to the darksiders, and those who wish to repair the newer trucks. While you need a degree in advanced molecular chemistry to understand it all, basically the formula for steel has changed. Worse, many different formulas are used - even different in different parts of the same vehicle.
Each formula has different welding and working characteristics - and some may be damaged by the heat of welding. I guess this makes sense as the manufacture's are recommending parts be glued together rather than welded.
I have long intended to scab the rear tail light assembly and tailgate from a '87 ford onto my '59, now I will have to reconsider just how to do this. I would not want to be going down the road and have my rear sheetmetal fall off.
I wrote a page up on what I found, and will include it as a sidebar in the article. I have posted that page on my website, please read it and post any corrections/questions/additions you may have.
http://www.old-fords.com/New%20Steel.htm
Thanks
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
no problem bossind!
I'd suggest buying a copy of Ron Covell's Video www.covell.biz called "Basic Techniques for Working with Steel". It IMHO is the very best 40.00 you can spend. If for nothing else than to hear and see his demonstration/explanation of ON Dolly and OFF Dolly hammering and how each is used in straightening sheet metal, that alone can save you 40.00 in Bondo!
I'd suggest buying a copy of Ron Covell's Video www.covell.biz called "Basic Techniques for Working with Steel". It IMHO is the very best 40.00 you can spend. If for nothing else than to hear and see his demonstration/explanation of ON Dolly and OFF Dolly hammering and how each is used in straightening sheet metal, that alone can save you 40.00 in Bondo!
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,172
Likes: 1
From: Oakdale,Ca.
Ya know, I've been patching my own piece's if steel for a long time, from early 30's DB's through late 50's Chevys and a plethora of mixes of Fords in the middle.
My best technique with any of them was to use my Mig, and spot each patched piece to an entire bead, then grind it off. ALways going opposite of the last spot and letting things cool inbetween. When done, grind it smooth and go on.
Some can do it with no filler, but bottom line is, and should be known, filler is not a bad word. Heck, after watching the show's on TV (AHR/Overhaulin, etc) the only way they get that "pristine" panel is after filler. Even the cars that win the riddler award, and the cars that sit at the top of the semi shows, all have filler on them..as evidenced by the "docu-drame-build" they show us.
I think sometimes folks get too hung up on a "perfect" patch and may get discouraged if they have to fill it, but geez, I've found sooo much lead in older panels that I am pretty sure were from factory jobs, I don't see an issue with cleaning things up with plastic filler. Only difference with using Bondo is it's cheaper, quicker, takes less talent and isn't as harmful to my health
My best technique with any of them was to use my Mig, and spot each patched piece to an entire bead, then grind it off. ALways going opposite of the last spot and letting things cool inbetween. When done, grind it smooth and go on.
Some can do it with no filler, but bottom line is, and should be known, filler is not a bad word. Heck, after watching the show's on TV (AHR/Overhaulin, etc) the only way they get that "pristine" panel is after filler. Even the cars that win the riddler award, and the cars that sit at the top of the semi shows, all have filler on them..as evidenced by the "docu-drame-build" they show us.
I think sometimes folks get too hung up on a "perfect" patch and may get discouraged if they have to fill it, but geez, I've found sooo much lead in older panels that I am pretty sure were from factory jobs, I don't see an issue with cleaning things up with plastic filler. Only difference with using Bondo is it's cheaper, quicker, takes less talent and isn't as harmful to my health