Group Tech Article Input - Welding
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,172
Likes: 1
From: Oakdale,Ca.
lol *****, I'm not referring to you
But, try this...assuming you have a good helmet and can see the point of weld and the arc...use the electrode or wire to "push" the metal up.
The "U" I speak of is not linear, i.e the sides of the "U" go slower then the bottom of the the "U".
I could try to type and explain it, but really, the only way to know what I'm talking about is to see it...IIRC you're not too far away6 from me, and I'd be ore than happy to show you what I mean if you want to head this way
But, try this...assuming you have a good helmet and can see the point of weld and the arc...use the electrode or wire to "push" the metal up.
The "U" I speak of is not linear, i.e the sides of the "U" go slower then the bottom of the the "U".
I could try to type and explain it, but really, the only way to know what I'm talking about is to see it...IIRC you're not too far away6 from me, and I'd be ore than happy to show you what I mean if you want to head this way
New User
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
I just wanted to emphasize the issue of NOT welding anything structural if you are a novice. I can't stress this enough. I have seen many nightmare scenarios from people coming into the various welding shops I've worked in with their projects that they welded. I understand there is a pride/satisfaction issue in doing something yourself but the fact is that you could be putting everyone around you at risk. Even a weld that looks great may not have structural integrity. It is always a great idea to have a professional do the job right. Plus, every weld shop always has at least one car enthusiast who is willing to do the job for a minimal charge. You just have to then listen to him ramble on and on about his project car/truck! Just my .02!
Just my .02!
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Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
It is not always possible or even desirable to take something in to a welding shop. For instance the last frame I stretched - I would have had to deliver the entire project to them and accepted whatever method they wanted to use. Plus I was not sure just how much a stretch it needed.
What I did was make the cuts myself, laid everything out the way I wanted it - even to mounting the bed to insure everything fit right. I beveled the edges, and cut some diamond shaped patches to brace the frame where it was welded.
I got everything ready and then called around and found a guy with a portable rig. He charged by the hour. He stopped by on his way home from another job, spent about 30 minutes welding and 2 hours drinking my beer, and didn't charge me at all.
Even if he had, it would likely still have been cheaper than a welding shop would charge, and I got exactly what I wanted.
What I did was make the cuts myself, laid everything out the way I wanted it - even to mounting the bed to insure everything fit right. I beveled the edges, and cut some diamond shaped patches to brace the frame where it was welded.
I got everything ready and then called around and found a guy with a portable rig. He charged by the hour. He stopped by on his way home from another job, spent about 30 minutes welding and 2 hours drinking my beer, and didn't charge me at all.
Even if he had, it would likely still have been cheaper than a welding shop would charge, and I got exactly what I wanted.
Senior User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
From: indiana
Originally Posted by 3Mike6
I'd like to know why a top-down weld isn't structurally<SP> safe?
vertical down tends to not penetrate verry well at all
New User
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
The main reason downhill welds are not structurally sound is due to the flux travel. When your burnin' uphill, the flux travels out of the puddle and collects downward upon the existing weld leaving a clean weld with no inclusions. WHen you travel downhill, the flux still travels down as well. So as your puddle travels downhill you are trapping some of your flux in your weld, creating porosity, hence the weaker weld. Granted, for some applications such as the thinner metals, a downhill weld is fine. If you are welding something such as a chassis, an uphill weld is a must, in my opinion.
"Mifflin Clay"
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,177
Likes: 4
From: Mifflin, PA
Downhill welding is difficult because of the tendancy of the weld pool to flow down over a portion of the parent material before it is hot enough to flow, thus depositing weld material on top of the parent metal. This causes inclusions of flux if present, and spots where the parent metals are not fused, but just overlaid with weld material without penetration. The weld material flowing over the parent metal prevents the arc from heating the parent metal, and the heat is then concentrated below the flow over, starting a new weld pool. The natural tendancy is to see the weld pool start to advance and move the arc ahead of it, thus skipping a portion of the parent metal as far as heat is concerned.
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Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,172
Likes: 1
From: Oakdale,Ca.
That's good info, and I'll hold my thought's in reserve for a bit, the post back.
My plan will be to do this:
Take a piece of frame and "lap" a pice of 3/16's over it to simulate an IFS install/C-notch, etc.
I'll do it twice, I'll weld one top down, the other bottom up.
I'll put both in my press and get after it and see what breaks, cracks, etc. I don't have a gauge, so i'll fashion up jig to press both at the same time, once one gives loose/breaks, etc..I'll see which is the better weld.
I've done numerous top-down welds on farm-equiptment, bottom dumps and transfers without issues...could be I've been liveing on borrowed time, but I really think that the techniques I learned from pop's is what it's all about, I'd have to ask him if he was ever certified, but I don't think so, but I know he learned the majority of his welding building Firetrucks for Van Pelt and working in the shipyards in Oakland, way back in the days.
Anyway, give me a few days to get things together, I'll post some pics (be a good excuse to start a Gallery).
My plan will be to do this:
Take a piece of frame and "lap" a pice of 3/16's over it to simulate an IFS install/C-notch, etc.
I'll do it twice, I'll weld one top down, the other bottom up.
I'll put both in my press and get after it and see what breaks, cracks, etc. I don't have a gauge, so i'll fashion up jig to press both at the same time, once one gives loose/breaks, etc..I'll see which is the better weld.
I've done numerous top-down welds on farm-equiptment, bottom dumps and transfers without issues...could be I've been liveing on borrowed time, but I really think that the techniques I learned from pop's is what it's all about, I'd have to ask him if he was ever certified, but I don't think so, but I know he learned the majority of his welding building Firetrucks for Van Pelt and working in the shipyards in Oakland, way back in the days.
Anyway, give me a few days to get things together, I'll post some pics (be a good excuse to start a Gallery).
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Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
Originally Posted by 3Mike6
That's good info, and I'll hold my thought's in reserve for a bit, the post back.
Anyway, give me a few days to get things together, I'll post some pics (be a good excuse to start a Gallery).
Anyway, give me a few days to get things together, I'll post some pics (be a good excuse to start a Gallery).
I expect you will use your MIG, but maybe we could try it using a stick welder too?
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,172
Likes: 1
From: Oakdale,Ca.
Sure *****, might be a good oppurtunity for you to head this way and get an idea of what I was talking about.
AX..Mig is about the only thing I've used the past 10 years, I could drag out my Miller Buzzbox, but it's only an AC welder, so rod choice is limited. I generally only take it out when I have to do something that I don't feel like bringing up front, since I can hook about 100ft of extesion cord and another 150 of leads on it to get to stuff out back.
Also, got me thinking about this, might make things be a bit more accurate:
Take a piece of frame rail and put a piece of 3/16th across it.
Weld one side top-down, the other bottom-up. locate the center, put it in the press until something fails?
We could do this with the stick machine as well.
It would save a little metal and electricuty this way, but whatever you guys would like to see, I'm up for it.
I'd tig it too, but my Tig machine is only good for light stuff..maybe 18ga at the most...it's an old 3in1 machine(mig/tig/arc), "Dipstick-150"-or another..plus I haven't gotten enogh Tig'ing to say "ya, I can do that"
AX..Mig is about the only thing I've used the past 10 years, I could drag out my Miller Buzzbox, but it's only an AC welder, so rod choice is limited. I generally only take it out when I have to do something that I don't feel like bringing up front, since I can hook about 100ft of extesion cord and another 150 of leads on it to get to stuff out back.
Also, got me thinking about this, might make things be a bit more accurate:
Take a piece of frame rail and put a piece of 3/16th across it.
Weld one side top-down, the other bottom-up. locate the center, put it in the press until something fails?
We could do this with the stick machine as well.
It would save a little metal and electricuty this way, but whatever you guys would like to see, I'm up for it.
I'd tig it too, but my Tig machine is only good for light stuff..maybe 18ga at the most...it's an old 3in1 machine(mig/tig/arc), "Dipstick-150"-or another..plus I haven't gotten enogh Tig'ing to say "ya, I can do that"
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Oromocto NB
Hi guys, been reading this form on welding and its great. i have a debate with the guys at work over how I want to weld the patch panels on my bronco. I want to butt them in, but they think thats a mistake and i should over lap the panels. If I butt the panels than the finish work after grinding will take less body fill. Also by over lapping I feel it will leave a lip on the inside that will collect salt and moisture. They feel over lapping will be lot easer, but I'm after end result and want to do it the right way and the best way.
What say you?
thanks guys.
What say you?
thanks guys.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
The right and best way is to butt weld them in. The reason is that any welding method will produce shrinkage along the weld seam, to correct that shirinkage you need to be able to on dolly hammer the weld bead (when performed on the still hot bead it is called by the misnomer "hammer welding"). If you overlap the panels there is no way to stretch the seam back out, you can't hammer stretch a double layer of metal. Then the only method left is to fill the area with a thick layer of putty or live with the distortion, neither is a good solution. The longer the seam and the flatter the panel the worse the results with overlapped welding. IMHO overlapping is only used for seams that will be spot welded or glued.
When welding a butt seam, it is best to do very short tacks as far apart as possible and stretch out any heat shrinkage as you go. It's much easier to keep control if you do small corrections as you go than to try to correct major warps at the end. If done correctly, very little to no filler should be required.
When welding a butt seam, it is best to do very short tacks as far apart as possible and stretch out any heat shrinkage as you go. It's much easier to keep control if you do small corrections as you go than to try to correct major warps at the end. If done correctly, very little to no filler should be required.
Last edited by AXracer; Mar 8, 2006 at 10:47 PM.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
Ax, you and many others keep telling me to use many small tack welds, instead of a long bead. That is likely ok when you can get power tools to the weld, but it is a real problem when welding 3/16 or 1/4 angle. I know you use your MIG welder for this, but mine (and likely many hobby users) just is not enough horse for that thick a weld job.
So I use the stick welder - and have a real problem with slag and cleaning all these "tack" welds up so I can get a good overall weld!
Any ideas?
So I use the stick welder - and have a real problem with slag and cleaning all these "tack" welds up so I can get a good overall weld!
Any ideas?
Last edited by WillyB; Mar 8, 2006 at 11:36 PM.