Group Tech Article Input - Welding
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Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
Randy, You are right - stick is for bigger jobs. I use gas welding on sheetmetal, or the wirefeed. But the stick is still worthwhile as there are a lot of other projects such as engine stands and the like, plus I can do things for the other half that keeps her satisfied and away from my mess.
I also agree on the grinder, but do we want to expand the topic to include other tools?
I also agree on the grinder, but do we want to expand the topic to include other tools?
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
You're the moderator and the one that will compile the info later into a tech article, we'll just keep throwing out info till you say stop. My comment was meant as an aside, and as a suggestion for a possibly more useful alternative to a cutting torch or plasma cutter for those setting up a shop on a limited budget. I'm on the fence as to if alternative tools should be included if we are going to discuss "unwelding" tools, or if we should include cutting tools at all in the welding tech article, I'll defer that decision to you.
We don't have much wind here (other than me...), but if it was a problem I'd rig up some sort of wind break around where I was working rather than use something other than my MIG.
We don't have much wind here (other than me...), but if it was a problem I'd rig up some sort of wind break around where I was working rather than use something other than my MIG.
Last edited by AXracer; Oct 28, 2005 at 07:27 AM.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,190
Likes: 2
From: Riverside, So Cal
It might be useful to include peripheral tools to welding, like an angle grinder as they are really part of the process. I also use a grinder and cutoff wheel to cut sheet metal, but the grinder with flapper wheel is indispensible for finishing the weld job.
Back to you, *****...your call.
Back to you, *****...your call.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,958
Likes: 1
Dad gave away his arc welder (buzz box). It was just sitting in the corner of the garage collecting dust. I have no idea how many years it had been sitting unused. The MIG gets used for everything. Yes, even to build my (way overkill) engine stand. Ours is a 220 model though. I have no clue if the little house current ones would work for this.
If I have to use the MIG outside, I set up a some sort of wind break and don't do it on very windy days. I have a twenty foot 220 extension cord for the MIG just so I can do that. My plug is near the front of my garage.
Mig w/gas (220?), torch (don't own one yet myself), angle grinder w/assesories, auto darkening helmet, welding gloves, chiping hammer. Just a few things a shop needs.
I am not an expert by any means, but I have a chunk of old railroad track I use as an anvil to shape (or straighten) things. It comes in handy for more often than you would think.
If I have to use the MIG outside, I set up a some sort of wind break and don't do it on very windy days. I have a twenty foot 220 extension cord for the MIG just so I can do that. My plug is near the front of my garage.
Mig w/gas (220?), torch (don't own one yet myself), angle grinder w/assesories, auto darkening helmet, welding gloves, chiping hammer. Just a few things a shop needs.
I am not an expert by any means, but I have a chunk of old railroad track I use as an anvil to shape (or straighten) things. It comes in handy for more often than you would think.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 28,609
Likes: 18
From: Lake Tahoe, Nevada
I do think that it is worth talking about various tools related to welding. It's all part of the same thing. Repairing and fabricating metal. In many spots and abrasive wheel is the only way to cut something, because of fire hazard and/or because of the clean edge.
I have ox/acy because it is indespensable to me. I've use gas cutting, welding, brazing and heat application since the sixties and wouldn't be without it. I also have a Hobart 220v wirefeed mig that I acquired a few years ago and it is what I use for welding most everything.
Having said that, I will add that I have used TIG a lot and gained some skill in it's use and believe that it is for most things the finest method for most applications. It is not as handy as stick or mig but far more versitile and after you become adept with it there is rarely any 'clean up' work to follow the welding. With TIG I can go faster or slower in the course of a weld without interuption but with MIG you have to stay up with the feedrate you have dialed in. I don't have a TIG rig at the moment and I regret it because I am much more confident in the quality of the welds when done. This is because it is more difficult for me to judge the level of penetration when I weld with my MIG rig. Any advise on that? I bought the MIG and just started using it without any instruction so I may be missing something.
I have ox/acy because it is indespensable to me. I've use gas cutting, welding, brazing and heat application since the sixties and wouldn't be without it. I also have a Hobart 220v wirefeed mig that I acquired a few years ago and it is what I use for welding most everything.
Having said that, I will add that I have used TIG a lot and gained some skill in it's use and believe that it is for most things the finest method for most applications. It is not as handy as stick or mig but far more versitile and after you become adept with it there is rarely any 'clean up' work to follow the welding. With TIG I can go faster or slower in the course of a weld without interuption but with MIG you have to stay up with the feedrate you have dialed in. I don't have a TIG rig at the moment and I regret it because I am much more confident in the quality of the welds when done. This is because it is more difficult for me to judge the level of penetration when I weld with my MIG rig. Any advise on that? I bought the MIG and just started using it without any instruction so I may be missing something.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
I have a piece of RR track that I ground a rounded end on then ground and sanded it smooth here at work I use a lot as an anvil, at home I picked up a couple short lengths of 12x6 and 12x12 I beam from the scrap yard. I'll get another section of RR track when I run across one or next time I visit my brother who works for the RR. Shaping tools prolly ought to go in the patch panel topic tho.
As far as home made welding tools, one indispensible tool is a "backing spoon" or two.
Hammer flat on your ANVIL (there, I tied it together
) the last couple inches of a foot long piece of 3/4" copper water pipe and bend it at ~ 45 so it looks like a small cooking spatula. Hold it Tight behind a hole you want to fill and with your MIG welder start welding on TOP the surrounding metal (NOT at the edge or you'll just blow the hole bigger) filling the hole over the copper. The weld will not stick to the copper and you won't have big gobs of filler rod on the back. I also made one with the end shorter and at 90 to the handle so I can go straight in in tight places. I also keep some strips of 1/8" copper plate to clamp behind seams.
As far as home made welding tools, one indispensible tool is a "backing spoon" or two.
Hammer flat on your ANVIL (there, I tied it together
) the last couple inches of a foot long piece of 3/4" copper water pipe and bend it at ~ 45 so it looks like a small cooking spatula. Hold it Tight behind a hole you want to fill and with your MIG welder start welding on TOP the surrounding metal (NOT at the edge or you'll just blow the hole bigger) filling the hole over the copper. The weld will not stick to the copper and you won't have big gobs of filler rod on the back. I also made one with the end shorter and at 90 to the handle so I can go straight in in tight places. I also keep some strips of 1/8" copper plate to clamp behind seams.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
A couple ways to determine penetration of your mig welds: on sheet stock leave a gap between the pieces ~ the width of your wire for expansion, when you weld the bead should fill the gap on the backside. Grab the test pieces with a couple pairs of pliers on each side of the weld and bend back and forth until they break. if the weld breaks before the metal you didn't get penetration. On heavier stock 1/8" + examine the edges of the bead as well as the back side. If the bead edges turn under at the metal you did not get penetration, increase heat or slow down. If they are below the surface of the metal you were too hot cut back the heat or go quicker, if they flow in smoothly that's perfect. With metal 1/4" + bevel the edges ~ 60 degrees each side to 1/8" thick and fill the channel in a couple passes. Cut across a few welds on thicker material and examine the weld to see that you didn't leave any voids. An 8 hr day or two of practice on scrap and you should be able to lay a good solid bead.
Hint: hold the torch at ~20-30 degrees to the metal surface pointed TOWARDS yourself so you can see the end of the tip. Lay the tip right on the metal and keep it in contact to maintain consistant distance. Weld TOWARDS yourself PUSHING the torch as you weld. If the weld sputters, increase the feed rate slightly or slow down the torch movement. If the wire starts pushing the torch tip away from the metal decrease the feed rate or speed up your bead. Keep a pair of welders or needle nose pliers with wire cutters handy. Clip off any ***** on the end of the wire and cut it ~ 1/8" long before each weld. Use the plier points to clean out any weld spatter on the torch tip and inside the cup regularly.
Hint: hold the torch at ~20-30 degrees to the metal surface pointed TOWARDS yourself so you can see the end of the tip. Lay the tip right on the metal and keep it in contact to maintain consistant distance. Weld TOWARDS yourself PUSHING the torch as you weld. If the weld sputters, increase the feed rate slightly or slow down the torch movement. If the wire starts pushing the torch tip away from the metal decrease the feed rate or speed up your bead. Keep a pair of welders or needle nose pliers with wire cutters handy. Clip off any ***** on the end of the wire and cut it ~ 1/8" long before each weld. Use the plier points to clean out any weld spatter on the torch tip and inside the cup regularly.
Last edited by AXracer; Oct 28, 2005 at 12:20 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,328
Likes: 124
From: Iowa
"We don't have much wind here (other than me...), but if it was a problem I'd rig up some sort of wind break around where I was working rather than use something other than my MIG."
Here's two more cents from another wind source I completely agree with AX. I don't think there is any comparison between MIG and fluxcore for bodywork. I also agree that a MIG and Oxy/Acetylene is all you really need for a high quality truck build. I'd love to have a TIG and a plasma cutter, but your build quality won't noticeably suffer if you don't have the cash for the great stuff. I remember when I was the envy of my neighborhood because I owned a cheap MIG.
I'm hardly a welding expert, but I would suggest you do include a list of the cmust-have common tools to do patchpanel install, panel repair and light fabbing.
BTW, I shook my head when I read you guys were going to try to do a tech article on such a wide open topic. You can go to school for years on this one. I remember how much work the IFS article was. But you're doing a great job of narrowing the scope so far. It's probably time to discuss the direction you are heading.
1. Overview of welder types (purpose,cost,difficulty etc)
2. Welding tool list
3. Approximate price list for tools
4. Tips for actually performing a common Effie body repair
5. Is this a 48-60 tech article, or just a welding article done by guys that just happen to own 48-60s?
I'm not trying to steer this any particular direction. Not at all. I'm not at all qualified to write this one. Just trying to remember the struggles we went through on our previous joint project. I just think it's time for an outline so you know where you're heading. Yes? No? Shutup now 'fenders, you don't know anything about welding?
Here's two more cents from another wind source
I completely agree with AX. I don't think there is any comparison between MIG and fluxcore for bodywork. I also agree that a MIG and Oxy/Acetylene is all you really need for a high quality truck build. I'd love to have a TIG and a plasma cutter, but your build quality won't noticeably suffer if you don't have the cash for the great stuff. I remember when I was the envy of my neighborhood because I owned a cheap MIG. I'm hardly a welding expert, but I would suggest you do include a list of the cmust-have common tools to do patchpanel install, panel repair and light fabbing.
BTW, I shook my head when I read you guys were going to try to do a tech article on such a wide open topic. You can go to school for years on this one. I remember how much work the IFS article was. But you're doing a great job of narrowing the scope so far. It's probably time to discuss the direction you are heading.
1. Overview of welder types (purpose,cost,difficulty etc)
2. Welding tool list
3. Approximate price list for tools
4. Tips for actually performing a common Effie body repair
5. Is this a 48-60 tech article, or just a welding article done by guys that just happen to own 48-60s?
I'm not trying to steer this any particular direction. Not at all. I'm not at all qualified to write this one. Just trying to remember the struggles we went through on our previous joint project. I just think it's time for an outline so you know where you're heading. Yes? No? Shutup now 'fenders, you don't know anything about welding?
Last edited by fatfenders; Oct 28, 2005 at 06:09 PM.
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Elder User
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
From: Ontario, canada
The best thing i ever did as far as welding is concerned was to take a course when i was back in highschool.
If you have a welder or are thinking of getting one, then take the time to learn to do it right. Find a community college or highschool that offers night courses.
Learning proper technique and some classroom theory is more important than having the shiniest welding machine on the block. In addition, you learn how to work safely and how to protect your health.
If you have a welder or are thinking of getting one, then take the time to learn to do it right. Find a community college or highschool that offers night courses.
Learning proper technique and some classroom theory is more important than having the shiniest welding machine on the block. In addition, you learn how to work safely and how to protect your health.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,337
Likes: 165
From: Harpswell Maine
To date I have only welded sheet metal with gas, however I was fortunate to buy an older Miller 300/300 with a tig setup for light money. It is water cooled with a foot pedal. I would like to get proficient with it on sheet metal. A well respected street rod builder in Ma. used to hammer weld with TIG. Can someone indicate amperage ranges for 20 and 16 gage (butt welds). I need to teach myself.
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
Likes: 88
From: Durham NC
With TIG the setting at the box is not critical since you control the amperage with the foot pedal. Think of the pedal as a gas pedal you just want enough power at the box to get full penetration before full pedal, but not so much that the pedal is too sensitive that it's hard to control. If you can torch weld sheet metal, you'll quickly adapt to tig, it's very similar. Remember to throttle back as you approach the end of a weld at the edge of the metal since the heat is ahead of the bead.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
From: North Dakota
Originally Posted by AXracer
My opinion:
Welders:
OX-AC torch:
Thin steel: v. good
Thick steel: Fair-good
High tensile steel: No
Aluminum: v. good-excellent
Stainless: No
Advantages: inexpensive, versatile, portable, can be used for brazing, general heating and flame cutting
Disadvantages: steep learning curve especially with thin metal, when you run out of gas you're done until you can get new filled cylinder, cylinders must be purchased or leased from a supply house, clumsy to move around without a cart, tanks can be a safety hazzard if they fall or leak and are heavy.
Arc or stick welder (buzz box):
thin steel: poor
thick steel: v. good- excellent
ht steel: no
aluminum: no
SS: no
Advantages: inexpensive, no gas required, supplies readily available, only realistic home shop choice for heavy steel, easy to learn to use, can weld rusty or dirty metal
Disadvantages: requires a nearby 220V outlet, lots of sparks and splatter, welds require chipping of flux.
MIG:
Thin steel: good to v. good
Thick steel: v. good-excellent (requires high amp box which is less useful for thin material)
ht steel: fair-good
aluminum: v. good
SS: excellent
Advantages: moderate priced, versatile, 115V units available with sufficient power to do most automotive related welding, 220V units will weld thin to mod thick materials, v. easy to learn, smaller units v. portable run off household outlet, can be used without shielding gas, tacking pieces in place very easy to do, minimal spatter clean welds, low heat distortion
Disadvantages: requires changing shielding gasses/filler wire for different metals (involved process), adjusting power/wire feed/ gas flow for each job can be fussy, gas cylinders can be heavy and hazardous if knocked over, flux core wire welds must be chipped, metal must be clean, spoolgun required for much aluminum welding, smallest units do not have provision for shielding gas use and may be underpowered for all but the lightest materials.
TIG (heliarc):
thin steel: excellent
Thick steel: v. good-fair
ht steel: excellent
aluminum: excellent
SS: excellent
Advantages: Very versatile welding different metals may only require picking up the right filler rod. very clean low profile welds require little to no dressing, power is variable at the torch by footpedal or thumb slide, so little-no adjustment at machine is needed, best machine for light steel/aluminum especially if equipped with high frequency phase inverter (stitch welder), nearly no spatter making overhead welding easier, very low heat distortion, welds can be bathed in shielding gas as they cool
Disadvantages: Expensive especially when options are added (some new less expensive units coming onto the market), steeper learning curve than stick or MIG, requires two hands and possibly a foot to weld making tacking and some working positions awkward, same shielding gas cylinder issues as MIG
Spot welder:
light steel: good
other metals: no
Advantages: V inexpensive, no consumables used, no appreciable heat distortion, instant proficiency
Disadvantages: not useful for much more than tacking together two sheets of metal along an edge.
Welders:
OX-AC torch:
Thin steel: v. good
Thick steel: Fair-good
High tensile steel: No
Aluminum: v. good-excellent
Stainless: No
Advantages: inexpensive, versatile, portable, can be used for brazing, general heating and flame cutting
Disadvantages: steep learning curve especially with thin metal, when you run out of gas you're done until you can get new filled cylinder, cylinders must be purchased or leased from a supply house, clumsy to move around without a cart, tanks can be a safety hazzard if they fall or leak and are heavy.
Arc or stick welder (buzz box):
thin steel: poor
thick steel: v. good- excellent
ht steel: no
aluminum: no
SS: no
Advantages: inexpensive, no gas required, supplies readily available, only realistic home shop choice for heavy steel, easy to learn to use, can weld rusty or dirty metal
Disadvantages: requires a nearby 220V outlet, lots of sparks and splatter, welds require chipping of flux.
MIG:
Thin steel: good to v. good
Thick steel: v. good-excellent (requires high amp box which is less useful for thin material)
ht steel: fair-good
aluminum: v. good
SS: excellent
Advantages: moderate priced, versatile, 115V units available with sufficient power to do most automotive related welding, 220V units will weld thin to mod thick materials, v. easy to learn, smaller units v. portable run off household outlet, can be used without shielding gas, tacking pieces in place very easy to do, minimal spatter clean welds, low heat distortion
Disadvantages: requires changing shielding gasses/filler wire for different metals (involved process), adjusting power/wire feed/ gas flow for each job can be fussy, gas cylinders can be heavy and hazardous if knocked over, flux core wire welds must be chipped, metal must be clean, spoolgun required for much aluminum welding, smallest units do not have provision for shielding gas use and may be underpowered for all but the lightest materials.
TIG (heliarc):
thin steel: excellent
Thick steel: v. good-fair
ht steel: excellent
aluminum: excellent
SS: excellent
Advantages: Very versatile welding different metals may only require picking up the right filler rod. very clean low profile welds require little to no dressing, power is variable at the torch by footpedal or thumb slide, so little-no adjustment at machine is needed, best machine for light steel/aluminum especially if equipped with high frequency phase inverter (stitch welder), nearly no spatter making overhead welding easier, very low heat distortion, welds can be bathed in shielding gas as they cool
Disadvantages: Expensive especially when options are added (some new less expensive units coming onto the market), steeper learning curve than stick or MIG, requires two hands and possibly a foot to weld making tacking and some working positions awkward, same shielding gas cylinder issues as MIG
Spot welder:
light steel: good
other metals: no
Advantages: V inexpensive, no consumables used, no appreciable heat distortion, instant proficiency
Disadvantages: not useful for much more than tacking together two sheets of metal along an edge.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,958
Likes: 1
You can definately weld stainless with a arc welder just like a MIG (not sure how thin) 304, 316, 317, 317LM. I think you can get hastelloy and inconell rods too (sorry if my spelling is wrong, haven't been around them lately). As far as I know, you must use a TIG for anything higher grade than that.
There are rods for aluminum for arc welding as well. I forget whether they are AC or DC, but its not the one you typically have at home. Its the other one. I don't see it as practical for home use.
Before you ask, I have never used the aluminum rods, but my ex-father in law had some from his job. I never saw anyone weld with them. Just putting out the information.
There are rods for aluminum for arc welding as well. I forget whether they are AC or DC, but its not the one you typically have at home. Its the other one. I don't see it as practical for home use.
Before you ask, I have never used the aluminum rods, but my ex-father in law had some from his job. I never saw anyone weld with them. Just putting out the information.