All, would you agree or disagree that the major car companies have had and are placing "black boxes" in select models for several years without the owners knowledge to record event (IE:crash) data? If that is the case, and I believe it is how is it such a hard stretch to think that they couldn't alter some software to do the same for tuners? The ford rep I spoke with one time used the term "black box". Was it a slip of the tounge? Who knows. I am not saying that I absolutly believe that they are doing it but what would be gained by him saying that? Lets say for the sake of argument that they don't set the PCM to throw a code, what if they just set a piece of it to record small sections of the operation of the truck in flash memory? Don't you think that if they took a snapshot of the boost, EGT, various pressures and injector timing that they would be able to tell that it is operating outside the engineered parameters and was altered. I really don't think that it would be that hard or costly to do.
As for the question of ROI, if you can come up with almost concrete proof of someone violating the stated warranty and have many high paid engineers and lawyers on staff to say in a court of law that a tuner did it, don't you think that with the millions of trucks out there they would save money on warranty repair costs? Remember, all they have to do in most cases is win once and case law is set.

I think it sucks that we are headed in an orwellian direction but I guess money rules all

 

There is no question about this. Page 7 of my owner's manual ('04 F250) notes that my vehicle has an Event Data Recorder.

BTW, for folks who like to remove the EGR, my manual also has the following tidbit on p.258:

Do not make any unauthorized changes to your vehicle or engine. By law, vehicle owners and anyone who manufactures, repairs, services, sells, leases, trades vehicles, or supervises a fleet of vehicles are not permitted to intentionally remove an emission control device or prevent it from working.

 

I worked in Ford dealerships 23 years. Granted I have been gone about 5 years now. They have had P codes a long time. I am Ford certified in Electronic Engine Control. Been to the Ford schools never heard of a Phoenix code before. I am not saying its not possible. But I know that Ford has a number they forecast to spend on warranty. I do not think that unless the number spiked extremely high and they found it to be because of an aftermarket programmer then they might do something about it. I dont think they see enough claims to justify the expense. I ran the SCMT on my old truck for 100,000 miles and it never affected it in anyway. If I ever make up my mind which one to buy for my new truck I will have one on it. I dont think this issue will ever go away either. It keeps people worried and that is the cheapest form of lowering warranty claims.
Thats what I think anyway.

 

Playing devil's advocate on the black box crash data....Wouldn't that assume that someone would have to download the info/data on the black box in order to read it? (read use against you). That would mean that an official entity have legal access to these units. Wouldn't you have to allow this action?...wouldn't that be an "invasion of privacy" if that were collected without your knowledge? Just some initial thoughts on the subject.

JB

 

:

Do not make any unauthorized changes to your vehicle or engine. By law, vehicle owners and anyone who manufactures, repairs, services, sells, leases, trades vehicles, or supervises a fleet of vehicles are not permitted to intentionally remove an emission control device or prevent it from working. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely no flame intended, but if we all did what the manual said to do or don't do we'd probably be afraid to drive the vehicle. AND run with sharp objects...lol

JB

 

Well, I will say this regarding the cost of hardware and labor to design in something capable of recording some events beyond the normal PCM P codes.

In one of our satellite communications products we needed some place to store error codes and certain alarms that would be persistant after power cycle, or even if someone removed the battery that backed up the NVRAM.

The solution was to use some memory that was available on the real time clock chip that was built into the controller board.

Extra hardware cost = none.
Extra labor cost = about a day of code, and another day of test, less than $3,000 after salary and overhead.

There wasn't that much engineering discussion leading up to the requirement. Basically after some problems with the equipment after deployment and not being able to tell what was causing the equipment to reboot or hiccup, I said guys we need this feature and the next software release had it.

Granted, we do have some really sharp guys working for us, but so does Ford.

I think that if they decide that they need to do it, they could, and they could do it for a reasonable cost.

Still, I'm not going to worry about it. I don't buy extended warranties. I've rarely needed to take any of my vehicles in for repair past the end of the factory warranty for anything that was covered by the extended warranty. And I figure that if my motor pops a cork because I was operating it outside the original specs of the manufacturer and they deny a warranty claim, well then so be it.

Got to love my Suzuki's warranty though. They were actually encouraging users to take them out and race them and this doesn't void the warranty. In fact I received a free race school class and track day at Willow Springs with the purchase of my '96 GSX-R750

 

A buddy of mine raced an old 'zuki GS1000 and had the end of the pegs ground off from going aroung turns. Had to have been fun.

JB

 

Has anyone not thought of the OBD III spin here?? The BIG scare of the future?? If you 'really' want to do some worrying about being monitored...

Ford 'may' at some point put a 'super computer' that records windows of onbroard parameter limits/speed ect. being exceeded, or hidden codes.. But why? If OBDIII comes into play, and its already being tested in CA, trouble codes can/would be read immediatley with roadside readers, satellite, handhelds ect. and a OBD test invite is sent. The tested readers can read 8 lanes of 100MPH traffic.. Think I can beat it ... Have a look... http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may/obd_iii_new.cfm

..................HP...................

 

I would sure like to hear from the 'sticky' experts representing their products on this site.

 

Ford claims they won't access the event recorder data unless "pursuant to court order or where required by law enforcement, other government authorities or other third parties acting with lawful authority. Other parties may seek to access the information independently of Ford Motor Company and FordofCanada." (From p.7 again.) I don't know if it's ever happened or not, but doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to imagine a warranty fight that ends up in court.

 

Seems as if big brother cometh....If he wants/needs to.



JB

 

That is nonsense.
Ford dealers have been lying about this for quite some time.

The P1000 and P0603 codes come up even if you disconnect your battery!

I tested stock, virgin trucks and got them to throw the same codes as programmers simply by disconnecting the battery for a couple minutes.

P1000 means "more driving required"
P0603 means KAM (Keep Alive Memory) has been reset.

Disconnecting the battery sthrows these exact same codes.
They go away after a few drive cycles.

Any dealer who tells you they know if it has had a programmer in it is LYING.

 

$7 hood blanket, simple, you make 1/2 a million cars with this a year, do you really want me to do the math???

If they can find a way of reducing the cost of a car by 1 cent, providing it has little negative impact on the customer, they will do it.


As for the hardware/software.
They will allow approximately US$1500 per car for a warranty allowance for a SD.
Assuming that 1 in 20 PSD owners has a chip/other mod (I am unsure of numbers, but lets just use this as an example).
1 in 15 (again unsure of numbers) of those has an issue under warranty that is caused by said tuner/mod.
That is 1 in 300 cars has an issue caused by a tuner/mod, in my experience pretty conservative numbers...
Assuming that the average per car repair costs Ford US$1500 (am unsure of US parts and labor prices), as Transmissions and injectors aren't cheap.

1500 x 1/300 = 5 dollars per vehicle saving!!!
Multiply that by 1/2 a million, = total saving per year of 2.5million.
And considering the set up cost would be approx 3-4million, 1.5 yrs to recoup costs, let alone the fact this system can be introduced across all its cars...

Pretty simple...

 

Probably the reason we can't get decent gauges. It would cost only a little per truck, but millions worldwide to FMC, and they feel that the consumers would not be willing to pay the extra to put them in. I would, but I guess it's percentages and not enough would be willing to pay. Oh well. Good thread though, just wish there were a way to know for sure.

 

My thoughts:
(a) It's not costly to have a capability on the PCM to record whatever you want above/beyond what the Chip companies think is the whole picture.
(b) Time stamps are always a necessity
(c) While arguing warranties may bring some savings, the real current and future path of this is in the area of emissions control and regulations.
(d) Buying a vehicle equipped w/ a cell phone and satellite link is 10 times scarier. While you are asleep in your home, the EPA calls your truck to see if your mods have now caused the truck to violate emissions standards or laws. The next week, you recieve a ticket in the mail, with the time-stamped history of how long you have been breaking federal emission regulations.
(e) Having the comptuer, cell phone and satcom link COMBINED with residence in a land only Karl Marx could have dreamed of: California ... is virtually Halloween/Friday13th.