I am aware of that. I was referring to the testing the eye shadow by smearing it in rabbit's eyes.

 

There have been instances in which prison inmates volunteered for experimental drug testing. You can't force them, though. That would violate their rights against cruel and unusual punishment.

 

I agree. THAT'S frivilous, IMHO.

 

It's good to see we can all agree on something.

Over the weekend we chartered a helicopter to fly over the ranch. We have high fenches which don't allow animals in or out. A result of this is over population. Especially with animals that breed often and produce large litters. We shot many feral hogs and coyotes from the helicoptor. Does this sound cruel? Yes. However 5000 acres will only support so much wildlife. If we did not do this periodically, the ranch would quickly be unable to provide enough food, water, and territory to support all the wildlife within.
Peta would not like us much.

 

Why not alter the fences?

I honestly don't mean this in a confrontational manner in any way, I'm just curious, as that would seem the easiest and most humane thing to do.

Waxy

 

Deer hunting has become big business in Texas. Many ranches have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to put these high fences in place. The idea is simple. Keep all your deer in and all their deer out. Then start working on the genetics on your ranch. Ranchers spend thousands of dollars on deer with good genetics. They purchase the deer with tall tines and wide inside spreads. They then cut the deer loose within their ranch knowing that the cannot escape. No one is allowed to shot the deer that have been purchased. In the meantime hunters are brought in to shot the deer with the smaller narrower racks. Over a matter of about 10 to 15 years the deer population is altered to favor the better genes. Several ranches have succeeded in "raising" high quailty deer within enormous acrages. Thus allowing the animals to remain wild, while inturn controling the genetics. It does not happen overnight, but eventally your ranch produces high quality bucks that hunters will pay top dollar to hunt.

Along with this improvement in deer genetics you have other situations that araise,like overpopulation, overgrazing, and eventually too many animals in one area. Ranchers have to be ready to address such situations when they arise. Hence the helicopter.

 

Haulingboat, please don't take this as a personal attack, I have nothing against you personally, only the practice you described bothers me. I was afraid that this was going to be your answer.

These kind of "hunting ranches", deer farms, game pens, whatever, sicken me, I despise them. I will fight this kind of thing coming to Canada with every part of my being. How is this hunting? How is it sport? Since when can you own wild creatures? It goes against everything I believe in when it comes to the natural world around me.

Where's the honor in shooting a genetically manipulated animal within the confines of a pen? Is that a conquest or an accomplishment? It's about as low as you can get IMHO.

Why would we allow anyone to carve up nature into small blocks and artificially alter the gene pool of supposedly wild animals?

What about all the other animals affected besides the deer?

What about diseases like mass wasting etc... that are proven to orignate in domesticated "wild" animals and inevitably spread to wild populations causing untold devastation? There are hundreds of examples of this that led the eradication of 10's of thousands of animals.

I realize that this is viewed as a business like any other in your area of the world. However, I will NEVER be able to view wildlife as a business. It's an oxymoron.

Waxy

 

Waxy, I understand your view point. I dont think it is proper to compair these ranches to any type of "deer farm or game pen." The areas most ranchers high fence are several thousand acres large. The ranch we hunt is actually 9000 acres. We hunt the northern 5000. That allows deer and other animals their natural territories to roam freely. All the mating is done in the wild not in a small enclosure. Hunting the animals is no different than on low fence ranches. It is very easy to put 100+ miles on a vehicle over the weekend driving around the ranch. 85 of those miles are easily out of sight of any fence.

As far as "carving nature into small chunks." That started long before highfences.

I have taken none of this personally and see alot of disagreement over this issue right here at home. I would recommend that you witness such a ranch before being so judgemental.
The animals are keep healthy through diet. Winter oats are planted through out the ranch as well as large protien feeders that are scattered amoungst the pastures. The protein fed to the animals often has antibiotics in it. This helps to fight disease and help bucks that are wounded during the rut heal properly. Protein is not fed during hunting season so hunters do not have an unfair advantage. The deer and other animals are no more tame than on lowfence ranches. The hunters hunting the animals have no more advantage than they would on a low fence ranch.


All that being said there all issues that araise like the ones mentioned before. Their are some guidelines to be followed when hunting high fence areas. Those guidelines lead to better population control and a healthier herd. Most deer shot are shot in the presence of a guide or after proper education. One must be able to properly age a deer before shooting. One must also be able to recognize a trophy buck from a cull buck. By requiring such guidelines the ranches of south Texas have successfully managed healthy herds that have giving Parks and Wildlife valuable information used in the states management of wildlife. State hunting grounds have begun using some of the guidelines to protect and further the advancement of the herd on public lands.
Please open your mind to the possibility that these ranches are improving hunter knowledge and advancing the future of deer hunting in Texas.
We have several out of state hunters that come to our ranch just to shoot a buck with antlers. Many tell us of the hunting woes they experience back home, such as no deer with antlers, overcrowded hunting grounds, days of hunting without seeing an animal. The advancements made and knowledge learned from ranchers will perserve the whitetail deer for future generations and keep them from going the way of many overhunted or overfished speicies.

I don't mean this as a personal attack. Just a request to further your knowledge.

 

While I respect your request and your excellent handling of my rather emotional post, this is simply an issure that I have no desire to be rational or logical about. I'm afraid that no amount of reason would change my stance on the issue.

Perhaps I'm spoiled living in western Canada where deer outnumber people, and where in many places, including where I grew up, fences are the exception, not the rule. 9000 acres does not compare to animals having the ability to roam over several townships or even hundreds of square miles. No wild animal should be fenced, regardless of the size of the area.

Fencing = ownership and confinement, no one can own wildlife and it can't be confined, that is the very essence of the word.

The Canadian law reads that while you may lease the land, or even have title to it, you do NOT own the wildlife on it. It is illegal to inhibit the natural movement of wildlife in any manner. There are maximum heights for fences, and especially where antelope are present, minimum heights above ground for fences. Enclosed areas are limited to small stock handling and grazing areas (usually in the case of bison, sheep, etc... including Elk, a whole other rant that ties into this topic)

This protection also extends to the direct feeding of animals. This one is a little grey, as the feeding of animals is general accepted during the winter, but the feed must be removed in the spring, and animals may not be "baited". Again, a little grey as some farmers will plant wildlife friendly crops such as peas to attract deer and migratory birds.

What you've described seems more to me like a carefully managed and marketed cattle herd that you can charge people to hunt than a wildlife refuge that we can use to understand the NATURAL actions of deer.

Finally, I think it's a terribly sad state of affairs that hunters have to travel large distances to managed game parks in order to experience a successful hunt. That and the fact that you even consider the possibility of the Whitetail deer going the way of the Dodo bird is a terrible reflection on the job that is being done in the US to manage wildlife and wildlife habitat.

Waxy

P.S. Ever wonder why there are no deer with antlers? Ever question why that's such an important factor? That's a whole other rant that I have already brought up in the Pig Pen.

 

Thanks for keeping an open mind being objective and understanding how we are trying to correct a bad situation

 

I take it this is sarcastic, if not I apologize for mis-reading you.

At any rate, like I said, this is not an objective or logical issue for me, my mind is closed. This is one of VERY few issues that I view as being black and white, for me it's more along the lines of religion than science.

Waxy

 

haulingboat--

I have to say, your description of your hunting ranch sounds very much like a livestock operation. Granted there isn't roundup of all the deer, but they don't seem really wild in my mind's eye. The fact that you feed them on an ongoing basis doesn't jibe well.

The fact that you feed them antibiotics really creeps me out. That seems incredibly unnatural. Organic livestock aren't even fed antibiotics in such a manner!

That said, I can understand where the whole concept comes from. Texas is such a different place, very little of it is left in a natural state. Almost everything has been touched by the hand of man, and not lightly either. Hunting ranches are just an extension of that.

Whistler

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whistler
haulingboat--

I have to say, your description of your hunting ranch sounds very much like a livestock operation. Granted there isn't roundup of all the deer, but they don't seem really wild in my mind's eye. The fact that you feed them on an ongoing basis doesn't jibe well.
What's the difference between what they do and the northern farmer who has a herd of pesky deer eating his corn all fall and getting shot in the winter by the farmer?

The fact that you feed them antibiotics really creeps me out. That seems incredibly unnatural. Organic livestock aren't even fed antibiotics in such a manner!
There's a good reason for feeding deer antibiotics. Deer, by nature don't travel in large groups, but when fed, will congregate. They had the problem of spreading diseases from deer to deer because of the communal feeding areas, so in many areas, setting up bait piles isn't allowed in Michigan now.

That said, I can understand where the whole concept comes from. Texas is such a different place, very little of it is left in a natural state. Almost everything has been touched by the hand of man, and not lightly either. Hunting ranches are just an extension of that.

No different from anywhere else. In fact, I'd argue that much of Texas is less"spoiled by the hand of man" than most populus states. Here in Michigan,deer are a nuisance in most areas. Thousands of them are struck and killed on our highways every year. They have to be culled from state parks to keep them from starving and spreading diseases.
As civilization encroaches on their natural habitat, they are forced into smaller and smaller areas where the local fauna can't support them. I think that it's much more humane to cull the herds than to have them starve.

 

One can own "wild stock". here in the state of Arizona it isn't legal to own native wild species even if they originate in another state or country, they closed that loophole a few years ago. However there exist legally owned native species that originated before the laws were tightened, and if you breed them you can sell them, they just have to be documented. You can also import domestically bread wild stock although with a few of the deseases going around now that can be a pain.
You can also get a permit to raise endangered and exotic species such as bison and vicuna (looks like a shaved llama) and a few others.
I've been asked by people about our pet deer but ours being fallow are neither native or endangered and are not controlled exept where desease enteres the picture. I don't see any difference really between hunting preserves and farm, either way you have to kill it to eat it, as long as its killed humanely.
Unlike some our deer are actually pets they answer to their names and the male can empty a tool box faster than a two year old. The female can be a handful when its time to worm but I can pick her up and hold her. If some of the peta people had their way I would be forced to turn them loose.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waxy
Haulingboat, please don't take this as a personal attack, I have nothing against you personally, only the practice you described bothers me. I was afraid that this was going to be your answer.

These kind of "hunting ranches", deer farms, game pens, whatever, sicken me, I despise them. I will fight this kind of thing coming to Canada with every part of my being. How is this hunting? How is it sport? Since when can you own wild creatures? It goes against everything I believe in when it comes to the natural world around me.

5000 acres of range doesn't sound like a game pen to me. What is the difference between that and hunting on a farmer's corn field that has been the home for a small herd of deer for the summer? Just a fence 10 miles away?

Where's the honor in shooting a genetically manipulated animal within the confines of a pen? Is that a conquest or an accomplishment? It's about as low as you can get IMHO.
What pen? 5000 acres is hardly "a pen".

Why would we allow anyone to carve up nature into small blocks and artificially alter the gene pool of supposedly wild animals?
We carve up nature into small blocks every day. They're called roads, housing developments, industrial parks, farms. As for "manipulated animals, are you aware that we breed cows for milk and meat, sheep for wool, dogs for show and chicken for egg production?

What about all the other animals affected besides the deer?

What about diseases like mass wasting etc... that are proven to orignate in domesticated "wild" animals and inevitably spread to wild populations causing untold devastation? There are hundreds of examples of this that led the eradication of 10's of thousands of animals.
It's always of concern when naturally reclusive animals share small areas.

I realize that this is viewed as a business like any other in your area of the world. However, I will NEVER be able to view wildlife as a business. It's an oxymoron.

Maybe if you looked at them as livestock, you'd understand.

Just my $0.02 worth.