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I have the 10 speed in my '17 F150. No issues with it. I had a '16 F150 with the 6 speed similarly equipped. The 10 sp gets 1 to 1.5 mpg more than the 16 did. I would expect the same with the 10 speed in the SD. If you drive a lot it would be worth it to wait just for that.
Any word on changes to the CP4 for the 2020 model? I know that problems get overblown on the Internet but if you are one of the unlucky ones and your HPFP grenades you are talking a $10-11k bill.
Consumer Reports is actually an excellent resource. They are data driven, member supported, have their own test facility, and purchase all the vehicles they test so they are less likely to be influenced by manufacturers. It is definitely one of the resources I use when making large purchases. The information they provide is clearly more meaningful than any anecdotal evidence provided by some dude on an internet forum. That being said, I do take the anecdotal information under advisement, especially when it comes from multiple sources and appears to present a trend. The truth is, you could buy a vehicle highly recommended by CR and end up with a lemon. You could also buy a vehicle that has fared poorly in reviews from multiple sources and have a trouble free experience. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.
I think otherwise. I worked in consumer electronics for 10 years in the late 80's and early 90's. NAP (North American Phillips) built Magnavox, Sylvania and Philco sets. They were identical except for the cabinet. CR would consistently give the Sylvania a higher score for best pix quality
If I were to combine all the decades of my personal experience, with all the experience of every person I've ever met, combined with all of my professional experience in fleet related matters, I still could not assemble enough data to be considered statistically significant.
Y2, simply not true, you have amassed a huge amount of data at the rubber meets the road level. You data is viewed in the application of the product and YOU are not part of a pool of folks chosen to provide data points. Your knowledge base is incredible, one of the reasons why read all of your posts and seek you out for information.
Originally Posted by Y2KW57
I re-read the last two pages of this thread, and could not find where anyone suggested that 400,000 Jeep owners were surveyed.
I checked CR's website, and found that CR did not say that they did either.
It sounds like CR obtains it's survey data from a pool of nearly a half million people who already care enough about consumer reports (not the magazine, but the noun) to pay for them in the form of a subscription. Thus, the pool of respondents is data motivated, both seeking, and contributing to, a pool of data that is larger than their own experience. I find that hard to discount.
Post 50 makes ref to 400k. I know well that they do not do 400k Jeeps, I was just pointing that out.
Lets talk about CR and their data collection. This pool of people is "data motivated" and that is the problem.
CR: Hey Joe, tells us what is wrong with your 2018 EcoBox with its BelchFire engine.
Now Joe, in order to be a good guy and participate in this Joe really, needs to find stuff wrong.
Y2, you are there to find things wrong, WRONG comes to you (assuming you are involved with the care and feeding of fleets etc). Your data is of better quality than that of CR or any other org that gives some people something to record like tell us what wrong. CR is looking for wrong, not right! Data has to be unbiased pro or con, it had to reflect reality not preconceived or requested data.
SO yea, 50 years of exp with Jeeps has been nothing but positive.
How about my Superduty's:
I have owned 5 over 9 years, everyone was bought new except 1 and it was still in warranty:
'11 drivers side view mirror replace would not hold a setting and vibrate badly
'15 required a complete reinstall of all software due to excessive DEF consumption, 15 gal in 1400 miles
Right front brake assembly replaced due to pulling to the right on hard stops
'17 drivers side seat replaced due to failing leather
CR....please.
I love the “higher repair cost” nonsense used as a reason, as if labor and parts cost are to somehow remain stagnant and free of inflation. Buy expensive vehicles. prepare to spend on expensive parts and labor.
Ever take a Mercedes in for an oil change?
What’s more bewildering, people actually use this dribble to transform this random opinion and present it as fact..
Our Jeep experience reflects Dons.
My son has purchased three brand new Jeeps. A new 2012 Liberty in high school, a 2016 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited, and of course a new “redesigned” Sahara Unlimited model in late 2018.
All three have been completely trouble free. The latest redesign IMO, leaps and bounds improved over the outgoing model. 8 speed trans is flawless, quieter, and definitely rides better. The doors close without slamming and the technology/safety/infotainment screen is now 21 century.
I borrow it every time he's not looking!
I’m looking to get out of motorcycling, and pick up a two door for my wife (me) and strip it down for summer. Much safer than motorcycles in today’s texting/driving world.
Why would anyone think that their personal experience is statistically relevant? It is just one drop of water in a swimming pool...maybe even a lake...or an ocean. It is such a small sample that it is statistically irrelevant. In 1995, I bought a new Grand Cherokee. It was a piece of junk. So what? I'm sure plenty of people had trouble free Grand Cherokees. I also know for a fact, that lots of folks had a similar experience to mine. The point is, it would be foolish to draw any conclusions from my experience with one vehicle.
How many times have we read posts like, "My seat heater stopped working. This Super Duty is a piece of junk! I should have bought a Chevy." Really, your (negative) experience with one truck has lead you to the conclusion that you would have had a flawless ownership experience if you had simply purchased a different brand? Okay. I get it. It sucks to have problems with a vehicle, but your experience (good or bad) does not provide any indication of the overall quality of that particular model or brand.
The simple, irrefutable fact is that a single reference point says nothing about anything. If you can collect data from dozens of owners it becomes more meaningful. Hundreds of owners? Now you can begin to identify trends. Thousands of owners? Now, that will yield statistics that paint a clear picture. CR collects data from hundreds of thousand of their members. They will not publish reliability numbers unless they receive enough responses on a particular vehicle to make the data statistically relevant. This is not an endorsement of CR. I am simply pointing out that their data is more meaningful than the experience of one (or many) folks posting on an internet forum.
Keep in mind, even the least reliable vehicles (as identified by CR or any other publication) are still likely to be mostly reliable. They are simply less reliable in comparison to other vehicles.
The problem with mass opinion is there there is zero control element. No foundation and base....Just how happy or how grouchy each particular individual looks at life..
Is the glass half empty or half full...
I do think my personal experience is much more statistically relevant, and a whole lot more valuable to “me” than unknown “members” of CR.
I can determine quality, fit and finish and vehicle service under my own maintenance a lot better than the advice the old grump next door would give, who doesn’t have a clue how to check his own oil or identify a grease zerk. To the OP, my experiences have been only positive with new model redesigns. Both mechanically, and the fact of having the latest style and tech. A little exclusivity for a short time is also fun.
I understand that sometimes stuff happens, and I’m not one to get bent out of shape if it does..
My brand new GMC 2500HD dumped a gallon of transmission fluid on my garage floor the day I brought it home. I brought it back, they fixed the trans cooler connection and I drove off. 4 years of driving, working, towing, plowing with it has been great without any further issues. Someone else may have had a brain hemorrhage over that...
Ever look at restaurant ratings on Trip Advisor?
A missed water glass refill may be enough for a person to hit the roof and give a poor rating, no matter how good the food was. Combine that with the fact that people who rate food, vehicles , movies are extremely critical over a wide range of utterly stupid crap...
As Don pointed out, if you are a member of CR, (which identifies a person who embraces criticism to begin with) and you get a call to rate an automobile, I am sure something benign could be drummed up that would irritate, but may not bother the next guy.
I do think my personal experience is much more statistically relevant, and a whole lot more valuable to “me” than unknown “members” of CR.
I can determine quality, fit and finish and service under my own maintenance a lot better than the old grump next door.
I understand that sometimes stuff happens, and I’m not one to get bent out of shape if it does..
Ever look at restaurant ratings on Trip Advisor?
A missed water glass refill may be enough for a person to hit the roof and give a poor rating. Combine that with the fact that people who rate food, vehicles , movies are extremely critical over a wide range of utterly stupid crap...
As Don pointed out, if you are a member of CR, (which identifies an overly critical person in the first place) and you get a call to rate an automobile, I am sure something benign could be drummed up that would irritate, but may not bother the next guy.
George, I understand what you're saying. Of course our personal experiences are very relevant to each of us. That does not change the fact that our experience is statistically irrelevant. If there were ten thousand widgets purchased and I bought one of them, my experience does not tell us much about the overall quality of the widget. I am only aware of the performance of one of those 10,000 widgets. Maybe my widget was nothing but problems but the other 9,999 widgets were awesome. Clearly these widget don't suck, I'm just unlucky.
One bad review doesn't drag down the overall rating of a restaurant...unless there are only a few reviews. So, you just made my point. Most of us wouldn't put much stock in the 3-star rating of a restaurant with two reviews..one 5-star and one 1-star. That is the definition of statistically irrelevant. If there was a restaurant with 1800 reviews and a 3-star rating, that is statistically relevant. Most of us would look for someplace else to eat.
I have been a CR member for years. That has nothing to do with being critical. I'm an informed consumer. They ask all of their members to fill out surveys for products that they have personal knowledge of. There are plenty of products that have amazing reliability ratings. That means that members responded favorably to that product. CR is one of the resources (other publications, personal experience, forums, review sites are some others) that I may use to make an informed choice.
I will be honest though, when it comes to trucks, I am myopic. I have only owned Ford trucks and have had no significant issues with any of them...well, except for that 5R110W that grenaded in my 05 Super Duty at 54,000 miles. I chalked that up to "stuff happens". I know that those transmissions were (and still are) very reliable. I just caught a bad break.
The problem with mass opinion is there there is zero control element. No foundation and base....Just how happy or how grouchy each particular individual looks at life..
Is the glass half empty or half full...
I do think my personal experience is much more statistically relevant, and a whole lot more valuable to “me” than unknown “members” of CR.
I can determine quality, fit and finish and vehicle service under my own maintenance a lot better than the advice the old grump next door would give, who doesn’t have a clue how to check his own oil or identify a grease zerk. To the OP, my experiences have been only positive with new model redesigns. Both mechanically, and the fact of having the latest style and tech. A little exclusivity for a short time is also fun.
I understand that sometimes stuff happens, and I’m not one to get bent out of shape if it does..
My brand new GMC 2500HD dumped a gallon of transmission fluid on my garage floor the day I brought it home. I brought it back, they fixed the trans cooler connection and I drove off. 4 years of driving, working, towing, plowing with it has been great without any further issues. Someone else may have had a brain hemorrhage over that...
Ever look at restaurant ratings on Trip Advisor?
A missed water glass refill may be enough for a person to hit the roof and give a poor rating, no matter how good the food was. Combine that with the fact that people who rate food, vehicles , movies are extremely critical over a wide range of utterly stupid crap...
As Don pointed out, if you are a member of CR, (which identifies a person who embraces criticism to begin with) and you get a call to rate an automobile, I am sure something benign could be drummed up that would irritate, but may not bother the next guy.
ill decide for myself...
X2.
You got a product and get an email that asks tell us what is wrong with it. Now the person is on the spot, wow, what if I find nothing wrong, then i am a bad guy.
Then you run into the problem of individual expectations:
F 350 CC, LB, SRW
Joe: Cab is to big, don't all that space for wife and me, and that long bed, cannot even find a place to park it, I don't sheets of plywood, give me a short bed anytime.
Bob: Love the cab, wife, kids and dog can all fit there and that long bed, WOW, comes with a 48 gal tank, got to love that. Wish I had got a DRW because my 16k 5th wheel us almost too much for it and I am concerned about the safety pulling a 41 ft rig.
One time we had to have a product user evaluated, so we gave Group A 225 with instructions to use for 6 mo and then tell us what was wrong with it. Group B 225 got the product and was asked to evaluate this at the end of 6 mo.
At the end of 6 mo we gather them up and compared notes and comments. Group A almost universally found lots of things wrong and we asked if they would buy it most said no. Group B gave an evaluation with mixed comments, found this was good and that was not so good. When asked almost all said they would buy.
I used to teach some very advanced software development courses. The course was 5 full days and you had to a software developer for at least 10 years' experience to be admitted. On Monday morn, I started the class with what are your expectations at 4 pm on Friday. My assistants would write them down and that night we would insure we covered and met each of those expectations over the next 4 days.
Management of Expectations is critical to get good and usable data in return.
IF you were an Alien from planet Zar and you were sent to earth to find out what is going on. So you join FTE form and J (Jeep) TE forum. You spend a week lurking and gathering info. I will bet money that when he reports back he will tell his bosses don't buy Ford and Jeep, they are plagued with some disease call Death Wobble, it affects them all.
Obviously there are two differing views being debated.
We all drive the same truck, and probably have owned many of them and gathered vast personal experience with the Super Duty truck for two decades.
We are all enthusiasts who probably know every nut and bolt in the truck.
I imagine we have collectively rolled up millions of miles worth of experience.
The OP asks a question about 19’ vs. 2020
We know that over 9 million miles of testing were claimed on an engine which is basically the same, but with improved internals, and a highly tested transmission.
Now, we toss our confidence out of the nearest window, fail to use our own experiences, and suddenly place our faith in the hands of joe-blow member of CR to give us an opinion of this truck line from various vehicles that do not apply.. Just weak and downright hilarious IMO.
We forget about the quality we know because a collection of random survey participants said so, and now has graced us with a brand new opinion.
Forget the testing, the previous ownership experience, and let’s listen to a collective lumping of Harriet, Ricky, and Sally from Topeka.....sounding something like this- ”And the survey says”..... first year models are problematic, and that includes the SD.
Obviously, if we didn’t like the product or the automaker’s reputation, none of us would be here.
I think I’ll bet on me, and my experiences before I post a silly random survey chart of what’s quality and what it not.
Eagerly waiting on my 2020.
Chnkr,
You bought a solid truck in 2019. I’m just answering the OP’s question.
Now given the choice between the two, when major updates are now available? 935 vs. 1,050?
—————
My wife drives a new 10 speed in our 2019 Expedition Platinum. 7-19 build date. Love it..
I’m not sure what the complaints are about, but it shifts flawlessly. It does what it’s suppose to do, with five programs available to alter the input conditions.
It keeps RPM is the same position with seamless shifting. Almost 20 MPG on a 6,000 lb. vehicle with 900 miles on it? It can only get better.
Possible software update with program difference?
Doesn’t really matter, the ten speed in the new 2020 is a completely different unit that will have a different transmission shift program.
—————
For those who have the maddening auto shut off in other vehicles, there is a very simple and cheap solution to end PITA shutdowns. www.autostopeliminator.com for $100, plug it in to the OBD port, and problem solved. Also, there is a hard wire option that mounts behind the screen for those who want to keep their OBD port open for other accessories.
My wife has an 18 Exp Platinum... although we love the Ecoboost, I don’t like the 10sp even my wife comments how harsh it can be downshifting...
That said my Dad (70 year old at that) has a ‘19 Raptor and it shifts perfectly. I really do think there was a big improvement between years.
Anyhow back to topic, I was in the same boat as you guys and did something completely different. Sold my 17 Lariat 250 with 30k miles and bought a ‘17 King Ranch 350 with 7k miles. I also was debating the ‘19/‘20 decision and ultimately decided to wait till 21 on the “new” truck.... also hoping Ford installs the big infotainment screen like the Ram in mode year 21.
My wife has an 18 Exp Platinum... although we love the Ecoboost, I don’t like the 10sp even my wife comments how harsh it can be downshifting...
That said my Dad (70 year old at that) has a ‘19 Raptor and it shifts perfectly. I really do think there was a big improvement between years.
Anyhow back to topic, I was in the same boat as you guys and did something completely different. Sold my 17 Lariat 250 with 30k miles and bought a ‘17 King Ranch 350 with 7k miles. I also was debating the ‘19/‘20 decision and ultimately decided to wait till 21 on the “new” truck.... also hoping Ford installs the big infotainment screen like the Ram in mode year 21.
I would highly doubt there was any internal hardware changes in our transmissions. Shift habits can be adjusted by a new flash. (download).
My wife’s Expy shifts as smooth as warm butter. I would ask your dealer if a new flash is possible.
I would highly doubt there was any internal hardware changes in our transmissions. Shift habits can be adjusted by a new flash. (download).
My wife’s Expy shifts as smooth as warm butter. I would ask your dealer if a new flash is possible.
I actually had them perform an “update” that took about an hour to upload into the car.
zero change. Hers shifts great other than low speed downshifts. From like 5th to 2nd. All bashing aside it literally shakes the vehicle. Also it does it 100% if the time turning off one street onto another in our neighborhood. Like going from 30 mph to 5 miles per hour then turning.
Obviously there are two differing views being debated.
We all drive the same truck, and probably have owned many of them and gathered vast personal experience with the Super Duty truck for two decades.
We are all enthusiasts who probably know every nut and bolt in the truck.
I imagine we have collectively rolled up millions of miles worth of experience.
The OP asks a question about 19’ vs. 2020
We know that over 9 million miles of testing were claimed on an engine which is basically the same, but with improved internals, and a highly tested transmission.
Now, we toss our confidence out of the nearest window, fail to use our own experiences, and suddenly place our faith in the hands of joe-blow member of CR to give us an opinion of this truck line from various vehicles that do not apply.. Just weak and downright hilarious IMO.
We forget about the quality we know because a collection of random survey participants said so, and now has graced us with a brand new opinion.
Forget the testing, the previous ownership experience, and let’s listen to a collective lumping of Harriet, Ricky, and Sally from Topeka.....sounding something like this- ”And the survey says”..... first year models are problematic, and that includes the SD.
Obviously, if we didn’t like the product or the automaker’s reputation, none of us would be here.
I think I’ll bet on me, and my experiences before I post a silly random survey chart of what’s quality and what it not.
Eagerly waiting on my 2020.
Can you get your head any further in the sand? Your one or two personal experiences that are positive doesn't give you the reasoning to tell the other hundreds of thousands of owners that they are wrong and stupid. You are in extreme willful ignorance sir.
But muh 9 MILLION MILES! All of that testing doesn't mean the vehicle will have no faults. Yeah, I'm sure Ford tested their light duty 10-spd a lot too...it had issues at launch. How about all that testing on the 3V Triton engines that don't like spark plugs? How about all the testing on the new 6.0PSD? 6.4? How about those early Raptor frames? I'm sure GM tested the hell out of their 5.3/6.0 engines, only for them to burn quarts of oil...completely normal though, right? Dodge probably did a lot of testing on their automatic transmissions in the past too....didn't work out too well for them.
And if you think the 2020 6.7L is "basically the same", you should re-read and re-watch some videos on it. Just about every moving part inside and outside is new. Pistons, rods, oil pump, turbo, fuel system, injectors, etc...
We didn't "forget about the quality we know", YOU forgot that first year vehicles have a proven history of having more issues than later versions. THIS is what the OP needs to know, and is what he needs to keep in the back of his mind. If the thought of having a brand new generation of truck is worth the small increase in potential issues, then that is his choice to make. Considering his planned use of the new truck, I would advise against the 2020. I provided proof. You did not. Google & Bing can even back me up.
But muh 9 MILLION MILES is proof, right?!
Nope. That just means it's good enough to bring to market.
There's a huge difference between a Ford engineer testing a prototype pickup in a controlled environment....and having hundreds of thousands of civilians, from oil patch workers to soccer moms testing it.
Can you get your head any further in the sand? Your one or two personal experiences that are positive doesn't give you the reasoning to tell the other hundreds of thousands of owners that they are wrong and stupid. You are in extreme willful ignorance sir.
But muh 9 MILLION MILES! All of that testing doesn't mean the vehicle will have no faults. Yeah, I'm sure Ford tested their light duty 10-spd a lot too...it had issues at launch. How about all that testing on the 3V Triton engines that don't like spark plugs? How about all the testing on the new 6.0PSD? 6.4? How about those early Raptor frames? I'm sure GM tested the hell out of their 5.3/6.0 engines, only for them to burn quarts of oil...completely normal though, right? Dodge probably did a lot of testing on their automatic transmissions in the past too....didn't work out too well for them.
And if you think the 2020 6.7L is "basically the same", you should re-read and re-watch some videos on it. Just about every moving part inside and outside is new. Pistons, rods, oil pump, turbo, fuel system, injectors, etc...
We didn't "forget about the quality we know", YOU forgot that first year vehicles have a proven history of having more issues than later versions. THIS is what the OP needs to know, and is what he needs to keep in the back of his mind. If the thought of having a brand new generation of truck is worth the small increase in potential issues, then that is his choice to make. Considering his planned use of the new truck, I would advise against the 2020. I provided proof. You did not. Google & Bing can even back me up.
But muh 9 MILLION MILES is proof, right?!
Nope. That just means it's good enough to bring to market.
There's a huge difference between a Ford engineer testing a prototype pickup in a controlled environment....and having hundreds of thousands of civilians, from oil patch workers to soccer moms testing it.
9 MILLION MILES!
Someone is angry and in need of a hug....
The world isn’t ending and the sky isn’t falling son...
It will be ok.
