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Howard, so far it’s a one truck fix for a deficient voltage issue. It may be a quirk of my truck, or not.
The non-stated point of this is that this is a complicated electrical layout. In most situations like adding a winch or big amp package figuring out what the wire or cable size is very simple, you know the amps so you cab look up the wire charts or calculators to find out what size to install for continuous flow and voltage drop.
The way our batteries are laid out, the way there are multiple wire/cables gets more complicated, and especially when we start the vehicle. Once the engine starts it’s just a walk in the park. You can alter the cables, but I think it’s prudent to check how what you do impacts everything else. I just showing my journey in sorting this out on my truck.
As I said to Scott, they are probably one to two million of the motors out there with stock wiring running fine. And I’m going down a rabbit hole.
The corrosion of the braided body strap to the frame is a curiosity to me as to cause and effect.
Was the disintegration of this strap due to the same causes that have so badly corroded the surfaces of the rest of the frame and suspension brackets seen in near proximity of said strap?
Or was the disintegration accelerated by current conduction?
Or a combination of both?
This is where Scott can chime in to offer at least one anecdote of comparison, with a California truck that isn't subjected to road salts. What is the condition of your braided body strap, DieselDan?
The corrosion of the braided body strap to the frame is a curiosity to me as to cause and effect.
Was the disintegration of this strap due to the same causes that have so badly corroded the surfaces of the rest of the frame and suspension brackets seen in near proximity of said strap?
Or was the disintegration accelerated by current conduction?
Or a combination of both?
This is where Scott can chime in to offer at least one anecdote of comparison, with a California truck that isn't subjected to road salts. What is the condition of your braided body strap, DieselDan?
I've got two comments, because Jack had asked me a couple years ago about that and about current flow as well: My strap looks like new. And it also flows current (I just don't know about the switching direction side). I'd have to go back and look at my notes, as I recall we checked KOEO (cold wait to start) and running. Cheap clamp-on ammeter...
I think it is more salt that takes out the naked, braided cable, but am no expert in accelerated corrosion due to current flow...
Scott
On Edit: Went back and here are the numbers off my truck on that body to frame cable: had an .8A draw initially, but likely since I had opened door.
Had Wife in truck -- During KOEO first saw it jump up to 26A while fuel pump running/injectors buzzing, vacuum pump running, then when all went off had her start truck and saw mid 7As but quickly went up to and settled in at around 8.6A.
I told her to drive around some and warm it up. When she returned I had her leave the truck running and I went under and checked hot and got 9.6s to 9.82A highest. I never tried an all accessories on check and this was radio and everything else off, just truck running....
For me when I took off the severed bonding strap it showed corrosion along with being burned. I only saw it after the dealer did the motor swap so I believed it was due to an incorrect attachment of the negative cable at the motor. There have been a few people in the Northwest who have had that cable broken, one here a few years back. My other 12ga bonding cable up on the firewall looks fine.
I'm getting ahead of the last video but I've recorded over 100a max on the 12ga firewall cable and over 60a max on the 12ga frame to floor cable, using a different scheme then stock, and they've remained intact. Fusing current (Preece) is 235a for 12ga but should be higher for those braided cables.
When I did the bonding strap under the truck, I noticed BIG differences in my charging systems at night. I have 2 more cables to do on Big Blu. I've just been slacking off on the vehicles lately as the house is taking the front seat these days.
Bill I need to take you up on the offer about taking some measurements on you truck to finish this out.
Upping the cable under there is a good pathway as it's a better path then the stock 1/0 from the block to the pass battery then the 8ga from the terminal to the fender when running. The 1/0 jumper from the block to the frame and route frame to floor has less resistance. But the cable off the drivers battery to the FICM/PCM ground does the same with a benefit during starter engagement.
The problem with improving that frame to floor cable is the flow is this during starter engagement, so higher current flow during starting through the 8ga battery cable. High flow, less voltage.
Howard, so far it’s a one truck fix for a deficient voltage issue. It may be a quirk of my truck, or not.
Jack, thanks again for your excellent videos and the work you've done, I think we can unequivocally make this at least a two truck fix for a deficient voltage issue.
I followed you down this path because I recently started monitoring different sensors on the truck and one of the areas of concern was that my FICM FLP & FVP voltages seemed borderline at 13-13.5 while running. After cleaning up the grounding points, a new alternator and adding the additional cables I've seen a .5-1.0 improvement across the FICM voltages with 14.0 while running as the new normal for FLP & FVP. I'll also be adding the 8 AWG fender cables soon...
At some point I'd like to upgrade with a FICMrepair.com FICM with an Atlas 40 tune but the funds don't permit that happening right now. Along with the sweat equity, I spent around $235 for the new Bosch alternator, overdrive pulley, DeoxIT & cables and I've been very happy with the results. I did not include the MRBF fuses/terminal blocks in the cost because I had them laying around from a prior solar project.
If you're ever in the Phoenix area I'd like to buy you a beer or ten!
Howard
Well, it would be Root Beer, and actually your feedback that it worked is also reward enough.
Today I've been working on one electrical and two other videos. The next video on electrical I thought may be the last on the grounds, but there is some info I can't get right now due to the motor out. I may just end it as I can, but I'm including how to make the 8ga the best way for under $15 worst case. Its possible to go singular to 6ga, but not larger as I'll show why as I tried that.
My intent about these is to show you can improve the situation with some work and minimal expense. There can be bigger upgrades but the approach is cost effectively and with testing, and that's the other point. When you're building up a modification you need to measure and test what you're doing or you can have unintended consequences or spend money where you don't need to. If you're doing it as a show piece, that's another story altogether.
Jack, we can get what ever you need done at any time. Hopefully as I sit here in the Doc office, I can get the ok to do some real work. I've been being a good boy as I don't want to have to go through this again. The projects are starting to build up fast. The tree guys where here and it looks like a bomb went off. Your not going to remember the place. I'm going to start reassembling the Ex tonight if the weather permits.
I've just be reluctant to interfere with your life, and I have been going through my own doctor issues too. Deleted that in the Junk thread. Let me put together what I'm missing and see what we can fill in. I don't have to do the full bore. Maybe I should take the vid I'm doing now and put it unlisted on YT so you can see.
Greetings Mr. TooManyToys. As you will see I am very new to this forum. My name is Jim. First I want to say I might be considered by many here as one of the dangerous ones. I'm not a professional mechanic. I'm the owner of a 2005 F-250 King Ranch which I purchased new in hopes of being able to pull a Fifth Wheel soon. With the money I've spent on alternators and batteries since ownership, I could probably have one half paid off by now. Secondly, the posts and videos I've found from you are extraordinary. This gives me some hope I might be able to get some advice from a very intelligent man such as yourself. Also there appears to be a tight circle of 2-3 friends of yours posting as well. I wish to offer my thanks to them as well as I think they will be reading this too. Not sure this is relevant but here is a brief history. Purchased truck in 2005. Between 2005 and 2010 EGR cooler was replaced under warranty by Ford. The lead mechanic at Ford Truck Shop who was taking care of my truck designed a EGR delete system, left Ford and opened his own business. At the time he was drag racing this engine with sponsorship from NAPA. Approx. 2011 the EGR failed again and I took it to his shop. I was out of warranty at this point. Since then the truck has undergone what they call bulletproofing and an upgraded turbo charger. Part of this process involved purchase of an SCT Tuner. I also purchased an Edge Insight CST I believe. Also during this process a portion of the fan shroud was removed with the assurance heat would not be a problem for me. Not sure it matters in this case, but wanted you to have some facts regarding the engine.
Regarding the electrical system. After approx. 4-5 years of ownership new, the batteries failed then alternator. I purchased new batteries. Then a new alternator from NAPA with lifetime warranty. Ever since then I've been replacing batteries and alternators. I cant give you an exact number but 10 times would not be an exaggeration. After about 5 or 6 change outs of the NAPA alternator the mechanic suggested I go back to Ford batteries and alternators. Something about NAPA alternators not working properly in this system. Guess what? It's that time again! After all this it doesn't take an idiot to realize (or maybe it does) that something else is wrong. Throughout this time I've posed many questions. Last change out he talked about running a lead from the alternator to ground. But it doesn't appear this ever happened. At this point I'm simply looking for a bulletproof method to stop the madness. Either he is going to work with me to find a resolution or I have another mechanic that will. I'm simply trying to do my part but realize I have to approach this gently as to not damage any egos. It does take balance.
Another thing I think is necessary to mention would be that for the first 2-3 years of ownership my wife drove the vehicle during the weekdays and I drove it on the weekends, (Fri-Sun). Her drives were a lot longer than mine. Since then I became the sole driver for the most part. My drives consist mainly of a 10-15 minute drive to work in the dark going to work and the same home in the winter months, (summer still light out so no lights). All this reading seems to confirm my suspicions that the truck is not running long enough to properly charge with this current system. As I said the alternator/batteries are failing again. My main suspicions have been heat and run time of engine. Therefore, I'm considering the purchase of the LN AVI160T2002-2. Still need to make sure this is the right one as my last change out of the stock alternator is 6C3Z10346DBRM and this number doesn't seem to cross reference. Shoot... this alternator is only a few bucks more and seems to be highly recommended, can handle heat , and voltage/amp problems. Am I wrong?
Considering you agree, after reading, watching, and some confusion, here would be my questions and assumptions I'm respectfully requesting your opinions on:
Can I use the pulley from the stock alternator or do you recommend something different?
Existing positive cable from alternator to passenger battery (+)?
Upgrade wire (included) from pass. batt. (+) to driver batt. (+)? If not included size?
Upgrade wire from alternator (-) to pass. batt. (-)? Size? Not sure you left this in or took it out. LN shows it as part of the diagram.
Upgrade wire (#8) from driver side batt. (-) to FICM/PCM ground?
Upgrade wire (#8) from driver side batt. (-) to ABS ground?
Also I understand to verify ALL grounding point contacts.
My apologies for the lengthy post but was trying to get pertinent info out there.
I have the joy of a summer head cold (who ever gets these??), so my response is deniable based on the amount of DayQuil I'm taking.
With just about all the alternators they show a dramatic fall off in accepting current in about 5 to 8 minutes after start, but that doesn't really fully charge a battery. It really takes hours, and your short runs are killing the batteries slowly. Not sure if I'm willing to commit that it also is hurting your alternators as I'm of the opinion that all the rebuilt alternators out there suffer the lower quality of replacement parts, even the Ford ones. With that scenario, all the additional cables in the world aren't going to help.
Even with my typical 40 minute runs of my truck I still saw a benefit in battery recharge by attaching a low amp trickle charger on the truck. For me it would be every 4-6 months, but in your case you might want to think in terms of weeks or weekly. With the glow plug and starter demand the batteries are pulled down more then the typical gas motored vehicle, so they can suffer more.
The alternator you identified is a 110a unit, and that is part of the problem. The 140 new Bosch would help some. The L-N 230a would help a little more, but IMO you'll still be back in the short life battery mode due to the undercharging.
I'm years behind on posting alternator testing videos, but this is a snap shot of the L-N after 5 minutes. Notice the amps at around 23, 20 of them are going to the electronics. So even though there is that much available from the L-N, the batteries are only taking in a few amps at this point. It's all they can.
Same is relatively true for a Bosch 140a. However, because it's output during the initial start phase is lower, the battery recharge is longer, and about 5a going to each battery. The bigger alternator helps, but you're still not going to fully charge up the batteries without adding a supplemental chargers the batteries don't sulphate.
You could use the stock pulley from your existing alternator with the L-N if that’s the one you choose. If you go with the 140a, get the smaller pulley to overdrive it at idle. It won’t overspeed the alternator at the 6.0s maximum rpm.
Wow! I did not expect that rapid of a response even though yes.... I did come back to check. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Please get some rest and wishing you a speedy recovery. You've pretty much confirmed what I've been thinking. Diesels do not like not running. Learned that with my fathers boat years ago. Just bought a new Schumacher SC1281 battery charger to limp me along till I get it to the shop. Will use it more regularly on the next round. At this point I'm probably still going to go L-N. Can't give you a logical reason why at the moment other than 2 internal cooling fans and more power. Don't get me wrong. This truck is my baby that I'm probably going to die with and I treat it as such. My ultimate mission is the life of the vehicle and not how fast one can tear one up. Also I want it to handle additional lights and accessories not if but when I choose to add them. Watching your videos I've never seen this truck start producing voltage like yours does. Mine is typically 10-11 volts for the first 1-2 minutes before it ramps up above 13 as when new. 20 mins. minimum for it to even get close to 13 now. I'm thinking the batteries are at play as I can not get them above 95% charged, banked or separately. You mentioned I could use the stock pulley with the L-N "if you choose". Should I be considering a different pulley? Also would the wiring assumptions I posted be correct?
You've been running the 110a, which during the glowplug activation doesn’t generate the amps necessary to supply what’s on, only about 60. The GPS are pulling 85a, the motors electronics about 20, and the batts will initially pull in 25-30a each. But the batteries are not charging taking in that 50-60a, they are supplying 45a until the glow plugs turn off. So voltage drops even more. Once the glow plugs kick off the alt still can’t keep up for the first two minutes or so until the batteries start to fill and their internal resistance increases.
The L-N can output 180a at initial cold idle so it’s capable. The issue with the L-N is its voltage setpoint cold is higher then Ford designed around, so you can get initial fluctuation in voltage due to GPCM kicking on and off depending on the voltage. It’s safe, but annoying to some. Using the stock pulley calms this activity somewhat, depending on the temperature, motor idle speed, and draw of the batteries. While I initially preferred the small overdrive on the L-N, I now tell people to just use the stock pulley.
if you choose the 140a size you don’t need to add any cables. With the L-N you need to add an additional 4ga cable between the alt and the pass battery along with a fuse for the high current output times. I’ll add some graphs later that I’ve shown here before, the data from the videos that I just showed screen shots of.
