You know the oil pressure is used to adjust the VCT and therefore the timing.. When you loose oil pressure, the timing is screwed up..... Don't quote me, but your suppose to have about 60 psi or so when at speed, and maybe 40 psi at idle.. If you have 15 psi, you have troubles...... pressure is dependent on the motor TEMP as oil gets thinner and pressure drops when hot.

 

I don't think unplugging the solenoids is a fix.. That does not LOCK the timing, just lets it jump all over the place.. No oil pressure to HOLD it into position. .......... when your testing, try idle, and also hold the RMP at 1700 when hot and see how it runs then.

 

Right that's why I asked about disconnecting the solenoids. With them removed, the timing never gets adjusted so the phasers will never move. That may help troubleshoot if it's even related to the vct system at all.

 

Your oil pressure test _may_ seem confusing. Be prepared.

After a six + hour 'cold soak', your cold idle (600-ish RPM) oil pressure is going to be way up there (50-60 lbs, maybe more) even with 5w20. At FULL operating temp (oil temp 180-200), it may sagg to somewhere around 15-18. Like @Steve(ill) mentioned, ~15 and below, you might expect some phaser noise (dieseling) or other vvt system symptoms (such as intermittent rough idle). But even 15-20 will operate vvt fine if everything else is working. A Very slight increase in RPM (800-1000), you should see HOT oil pressure JUMP to 40 or above - well above the vvt threshold.




I _DO BELIEVE_ you need to 'T' into the oil pressure sensor and wire tie the mechanical gauge somewhere so you can run with it for a time. The PCM will implement FMEM (Failure Mode Engine Management) if run with oil sensor unplugged - screwing up your ability to test. You will need engine temp full op temp to really get a true picture. That is when things get 'touchy' for the VVT system. With oil fully thinned out, there is greater 'flow' of thinner oil, increased chances any junk in the pan will get sucked up against the P/U screen. If there are pieces already stuck in the P/U screen (likely), loose pieces will naturally get sucked up against open areas of the screen, further restricting flow. That can result in Oil Pump 'cavitation' (creating air bubbles / foaming of the oil). THAT causes REAL problems because oil will NOT compress, and AIR does. So oil flow / pressure becomes far less effective - andd erratic. This is q likely reason WHY the problem shows up when it warms up or driven for a while.



We REALLY need to know what the PCM sees going wrong (DTC or DTCs). It will not hurt to run with VCTs unplugged - and can provide diagnostic benefit if properly assessed. Even though expect the appropriate DTC for that as well as degraded performance. The Phasers have an 'internal' locking pin that "SHOULD" lock the phaser at Base position (zero retard). Since NO retard is EVER requested by the PCM below 800 RPM or <25% Engine Load, if it is idling smooth - one can assume the phaser's are at base position and should be LOCKED. Unplug BOTH VCTs in this state, and drive the thing for any distance you wish. If it NEVER idles rough - you would ONLY know the cams are not BOTH staying synchronized at base position. It says nothing about WHY, just that they are not staying locked because VCT Solenoids "SHOULD" not be commanding either side to retard. If rough idle appears - you could suspect a stuck open / sticky / leaky / defective VCT Solenoid / spurious current in VCT electrical circuit.



The CEL (and DTC's) are 'sticky'. Once criteria is met and CEL is lit, it requires at least two, and in some cases more, drive cycles WITHOUT the condition re-appearing for the PCM to turn off the CEL and remove the CODE back to a 'pending' code - or clear it completely.


But we really need those codes and 'Freeze Frame Data' also, if you can get it. (That provides a number of other conditions at the instant the CEL was set). I can see you could benefit enormously from this inexpensive diagnostics scanner facility: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17715633

 

More great information.

The problem we had before we did the timing job, was just unplugging the VCTs didn't keep the truck running, and it still idled rough and stalled out (as well as lost oil pressure). We couldn't get it a couple of blocks up the street. In order for us to scan it, we need to be able to get it at least a couple of miles to the nearest autozone/advance so they can scan it as we do not have a scanner. (Although I may pick one up just to be able to read codes. I think it would be extremely useful later).

The biggest thing I am concerned with, is spending all this time and money doing the timing job, just to find out there's an internal component that is damaged, or severe damage internally that requires a new motor, or even more cost. If that's the case, we aren't going to pursue any further and are just going to get rid of the truck. If that possibility is little to nothing, I have no problem taking the time to diagnose the current state of the system.

I did find this scanner, which supposedly reads freeze frame data. This may help me (Provided I can figure out how to use it):

https://www.harborfreight.com/can-ob...ool-62119.html

I don't usually buy from harbor freight, but I've found their electronic tools to be mostly reliable.

 

There are literally several systems at play that could cause rough idle. Smooth (cold), rough (hot) narrows it down a little, but does not eliminate many. I assume it would eliminate 'compression' problems, but not fuel delivery (sticky / flaky) injector or even electrical connections in wiring harness, or at CPU plugs / COPs / Injectors. That's where the DTCs are a MUST have. It would be a shame to find out after all this that it is nothing but a serious vacuum leak, 'o2 stuck rich, or 'circuit fault' in one wire or harness pin somewhere.


I don't think that is likely (but it's possible). But knowing whether you are dealing with a P0340 /344 /345 /349, P0012 or 22 or something else timing related is a must.


I'm sorry. I have no knowledge of the linked scanner. But I DO know that anything that works is better than nothing. I happened to get started with Torque Pro on my Android phone - by little more than being a cheep skate. ($4.95 for the App, and ~$20.00 for the Bluetooth OBDII dongle from Ebay). I understand I have spent much more time than most would be willing to invest in digging into OBDII on my truck. But I found Ford makes about 500 parameters available on OBDII ( 450 or so intended only for their diagnostic techs). There are less than 50 that are mandated by Federal Standards, and those are the ones that any 'off the shelf scanner' reads / displays. Torque Pro has the ability to add additional (non-standard or unpublished) sensors / parameters that are presented by the vehicle CPU. That's why I post lots of the stuff here that I dig up such as the link I included in the prior post. IF your cams are NOT functioning properly, you would have in-balanced percent duty cycle to VCT1 and VCT2 and/or CAM ERROR 1 or 2 would be negative or positive --- etc.


But for now - any way you can get codes will provide much improved direction.

 

I picked up a scanner on my lunch today, but I won't be able to scan the truck until I get home tonight. It was actually a different model, a little more expensive,but has more features. (Says it does everything except scan ABS).

First thing I will do when I get home is run the scanner to see what the current CEL is. Would it be beneficial to clear the codes, start it up, let it idle and wait for the CEL to come on again?

 

Does it have the capability to display live data like Mode $6 data?

Based on the number of posts by@F150Torqued vs your numbers, you might want to follow @F150Torqued’s suggestions on how to diagnose the specific cause of your issues.

Get the current code(s) and freeze frame data, good. Regenerate the codes and re-read them - why would anything different appear?

 

I have moved away from 'clearing' codes as rapidly as I used to originally. Reason - the ECU will clear them (in a couple of drive cycles) if the problem is corrected. Sorta backwards logic. Most people clear codes, change something, and wait to see if the code comes back in a couple of drive cycles. - I just see if it goes away in a couple of drive cycles!

But, where you have drivability issues, and possibly several DTC, -- AND a new toy to play with it is reasonable for you to clear codes and go for a drive.


However, Please don't let your excitement loose valuable diagnostic information. Jot down or 'save' the code numbers --- IN the order they are listed. And save or write down (but preserve) the freeze frame data. Then BE AWARE - some codes cause CEL "IMMEDIATELY" and some take several occurrences. It is useful diagnostics to NOTE when the CEL occurred. For example, some phaser codes occur on cranking. That can be instructive if the phaser locking pin is NOT engaging holding the phaser at base ZERO retard during cranking. THAT IS NOT an oil pressure problem as there isn't any oil pressure during cranking anyway. That is caused by the 'strong' (as you learned) counter-clockwise torque the valve springs place on the camshaft/phaser. If that locking pin in the phaser is NOT capturing it and locking it - you will get a Code P0340 or 0345 during startup.

 

Okay, I pulled the codes, and then cleared them and ran it til the CEL came on again.. same codes the second time. In this order:

#P0204
#P0204 FF data (Its in about 15 screenshots)
#P0340
#P0345

It would take me 2 hours to post the screenshots as I took them with my phone, and there are some lot, but if there is specific data in the FF you are looking for, I can tell you what the data is or post the screenshot for that screen.

Also, for giggles I unplugged the solenoids. The truck ran a lot smoother, idled smooth (but transitioned from acceleration to idle sort of rough), but took much much longer to drop oil pressure.

 

@ex0r you did really good.


The P0204 occurred first - 'could' be responsible for the rough idle. Perhaps or what you describe as the "transition from acceleration to idle sort of rough) - and in my opinion MUST be corrected, so let's attack it first and put the _totally unrelated_ P0340 and P0345 timing problems on the back burner. They are more serious - BUT I like to remove unknowns systematically. There is NO reason the engine shouldn't run without P0204 - even if the cams / phasers are SHOT.


Please go to https://www.autocodes.com/ and search on "P0204" and read all about it. I am attaching an electrical schematic for 2004-2006 F150 that I believe SHOULD be applicable. But with a VOM, make sure you have +12 volts on pin #2 of the injector connector and 'continuity' from pin #1 of the injector connector all the way back to the PCM (Pin 36 brown/Lt Blue ??) Make '_SURE_' the plastic snap in the connector snaps in place. If not - spend the stupid damn $28.00 or so and replace the injector connector. (I've replaced about four on my old 2004.

It is "POSSIBLE" that the electronic 'output driver' circuit that activates an injector can fail in the PCM. (WE HOPE NOT). But do the simple / simpler things first. You MAY have to have a shop o'scope the Cylinder 4 injector circuit. But the PCM is designed such that it monitors the electrical current in that circuit and it is able to _SEE_ the electrical 'kickback' from the injector coil when the injector pulse completes. P0204 says there is a problem in THAT circuit. It could be an injector - but it is doubtful.


As or the P0340 and P0345 code. I would just ignore that for the time being. It is the most poorly described error DTC trouble code for these engines. Description leaves the distinct impression the problem is electrical. It sends MANY seasoned techs on a wild goose chase. There is a service buletin related at: https://www.autocodes.com/uploads/ford/06-19-12.pdf. As you can see from the bulletin, it CAN be electrical, but there are mechanical issues that will produce these two codes and takes caution to isolate. Since you have BOTH BANKS (340 & 345) I would chase out the electrical issues first, because they are least expensive to diagnose/eliminate. But if rough idle is related to those codes, it could NOT be caused by the electrical issues, but rather a mechanical and more expensive problem. SO: I am suggesting, remove the P0204 first so smooth idle can be EXPECTED. Then diagnose the P0340 / P0345 systematically.


I would use the above a approach - even above removing the oil pan to check for obstruction of oil PU screen - although if you had broken chain guides, I would ultimately want to clean plastic debris out of the pan. IT WOULD HAVE HAD NO OTHER PLACE TO GO!!


Good Luck & keep us in the loop so we can ALL learn (including ME!) I don't know that I deserve the 'flowers' @pdqford sent me in the earlier post. I have learned stuff from him too (ironically trying to prove a point to him)! Lol

 

Thank you for the sentiment. I am by no way a mechanic, and I will never classify myself as one, but I do consider myself extremely DIY and hands-on, and as I work on and with computers every day for a living I do consider myself extremely technical.

I am almost wondering if the code for the cylinder #4 is just a loose connection. The reason I say that, is because before anything was touched on it, it never came up as a DTC. When I was taking the passenger side valve cover off, I thought I had broken the connector on the fuel injector itself. When I put it back together, it still looked broken, but after inspecting it closer it wasn't. I do mildly recall having a hard time pushing the connector on on that one, and didn't hear that distinctive 'click' when you push the connectors on, so it's entirely possible that it's not getting a really good connection. Aside from that, I am not sure what would change between before and after when it comes to that circuit. Either way though, I will go through the link you posted, as well as do the continuity and voltage tests on that injector to see if it's within boundaries. Thank you for the detailed instructions on testing it.

What I find funny about the other two codes (the ones related to the cam position sensors),is that ORIGINALLY, the only CEL that was on was the Bank A cam position sensor fault. Afterward, we replaced BOTH sensors, and then the camshaft over-retard DTC came up, but it was the passenger side.

Now after everything is back together again, both passenger and driver side cam sensors are showing a DTC. It almost seems like maybe there's a loose wire somewhere that's causing those three codes to throw at the same time.

Also, I would like to add that tomorrow morning I plan to resume working on it, starting with first checking the system pressure at cold start and after its warmed up, using an external oil pump. Then, I am going to pull the pan and clean it out as well as remove the pickup tube and clean that out, regardless of if the pressure is reading low or not.

I will report my findings from there.

 

I appreciate your logical approach. I forgot to mention to just look through the Freeze Frame data and consider everything (as part of your logical approach to diagnosing any problem). Engine RPM, Vehicle speed, Load, STFT and MANY other things can give insight to 'what was going on' when the DTC was set and give a better idea WHY. In this case, it probably was set during cranking or within the first few seconds after cranking. (Runtime = a few seconds, SOAK time large, ECT and IAT near ambient, and so on.


And I 'suspect' you are 'right on' as to the Cyl #4 injector connection. The small rubber insulator in the connector will push the connector back up if the plastic clip is broken and will not 'snap'. (Funny story. I had the IDENTICAL source of a misfire develop on a trip. Fortunately - I had Torque Pro running and monitoring and thus KNEW it was circuit trouble on #4 injector. I stopped on a lonely Texas road - cut an 18" piece of Mesquite Tree limb and 'wedged' it between the PCM bracket and vacuum lines to hold the injector plug down. And continued another 300 miles on my way home - smiling about my clever 'RED NECK' fix!).


I cannot definitively challenge your assessment of the P0340 and P0345 codes. I Definitely ask you read the Technical Service Bulletin linked above. I recognize that a bad diode in the alternator _can_ cause noise on the CPS circuit effecting the PCM's ability to 'detect' the 5th finger on the Phaser (to determine CAM position). NOTE on the wiring diagram that the common source wire to the CPS sensors is also common to many other sensors - even including the Heated Oxygen Sensors. A faulty alternator diode can cause undue 'noise' on this circuit and the alternate continue to successfully charge battery, and pass Auto Parts stores alternator tests. THAT however will not cause (or even contribute) to a P0012 or P0022.


The problem with every diagnostic description I have ever seen on 340/345 codes is they fail to mention a critical (though very technical) detail. The CPS circuit is not "interrupt driven" in the ECU, but rather 'polled' at the appropriate time. The ECU determines engine / crank position by the CKP sensor / tone ring on crankshaft. It knows the degrees of 'retard' it has requested - and assums the phaser's are positioning cams properly. It (the ECU) 'polls' the CPS sensors to _SEE_ if the 5th phaser finger is detected by the CPS sensor. If electrical noise interferes with detecting presence of the 'appropriate' phaser finger passing the sensor --- 'bingo' 340 or 345 error. While NOISE _can_ cause that, so can being out of time and the phaser finger just simply ISN'T there when it should be. The diag. descriptions never mention this. If one jumps time - or is timed one or two teeth off - you will get these codes. ALSO, as I mentioned earlier, if a phaser is NOT 'locked' at base position as it should be, and you proceed to start the engine - resistance of valve spring tension will cause the phaser to move to FULL RETARD position during starting before oil pressure comes up to push the phaser back to ZERO retard. You will get a P0340 or P0345. THIS IS THE ONLY TIME THAT IDLE OIL PRESSURE IS CRITICAL. If inadequate to overcome valve spring drag on camshafts, one or both cams can remain in some state of retard causing horrible ragged idle. P0340 and 0345 are set during cranking. They are 'sticky'. Once set, they stay until the engine has clocked two drive cycles without the fault occurring again.


P0012 or P0022 (and their over-retarded brothers 0011 & 0021), indicate a completely different condition - That the particular cam is more than 5 degrees OFF from where the PCM is requesting, for more than 5 seconds. It is likewise 'sticky'. May only occur once, but the code will be there for two drive cycles. With this code, the question is - Is oil (of adequate volume & pressure) getting into proper phaser chambers to move cam advance or retard when directed there by the VCT Solenoid. And if not WHY not.

 

If it were set during cranking, wouldn't that cause the light to come on immediately? The light didn't come on until after the engine was warmed up and cycled again.

The issue definitely needs to be fixed as it's affecting driveability and potentially causing damage.

Is it worth it to tear it back open again to see if it jumped teeth on one or both sides ? Or if the cams actually have some 'spring' on them at tdc?

Although I just reread and it sounds like those could also be triggered from low oil pressure at startup which I'm going to check today, as well as drop the pan and clean out.

 

Agreed. As far as I know - both codes are immediate. Carefully analyze freeze frame data for confirmation, but I can't dispute your assessment.

Both dropping oil pan and checking oil pressure are worthwhile and needed efforts.

Another "_POSSIBILITY_" (since you have the same code for BOTH banks - less likely bad part or same mistake on BOTH sides), there is one common component that can have the same detrimental effect to both sides. The Crankshaft Tone Ring. Are you CERTAIN that you installed it with the fingers pointing FORWARD? Do you have photos from which you might be able to tell? It WILL go on backwards and run. But the effect of installing backwards moves the missing tooth about 10 degrees - totally screwing up the engines timing relationship between crankshaft TDC as to phaser positioning. Just a thought.

As for oil pressure at startup - (no dispute intended) - something about the VVT design to keep in mind is: THIS is the 'design purpose' of that little spring loaded locking pin inside the Phaser.

Having monitored VVT / Phaser operation on my truck extensively via the earlier linked Torque Pro screen, I can tell you with certainty that: - when any retard is in effect (above 25% engine load and greater than 800 RPM), there (should be) PLENTY of oil pressure to operate properly functioning Phasers. As 'soon as' you 'decelerate' or load drops below 25% or RPMs drop below 800 - the VCT Solenoids totally 'close' - thus routing 100% oil flow into advance chambers at very sufficient pressure (~40 to 50). As RPMs decline, Oil pressure declines below ~ 25 lbs, the little spring under the locking pin SHOULD LOCK the Phaser at that 'base' position.

See Photo. The Plunger is removed, but goes on top of the spring and it locks into the other half of the Phaser at full advance, preventing movement between the two halves. There are very small oil passageways to the top of the plunger allowing oil pressure to depress the spring "UNLOCKING" it as oil pressure exceeds about ~25 lbs (or more ??). That condition should be guaranteed above 800 RPM (the minimum point where the PCM will call for retard - provided IF and only if engine load > 25%). This design should operate like a C-Saw, Phasers locked below 25 lbs (idle conditions), unlocked above 25 lbs (retard requirement conditions).

If the above 'facilities' are functioning properly, when the engine is idled down and shut off, the phasers should be in the locked state for subsequent startup. It should NOT matter if there is ZERO oil pressure (as far as Phasers are concerned). The locking pins should prevent valve spring resistance from dragging the phasers into retarded position. If it DOES NOT HAPPEN - you will get a P0012 or P0022 code - AND/OR a P0340 or P0345, but it is NOT dependent on oil pressure at startup - it has to do with phasers not locking at shutdown.

///Chain tensioners are a different subject - but the spring tension in them SHOULD be adequate to prevent a new chain from jumping teeth before oil pressure comes up.///





EDIT: Afterthought: So as to NOT mislead or cause others reading this to misdiagnose - This is NOT to say oil pressure in your case is not your problem. If trash is being sucked up into the OP screen causing air bubbles in oil galleys, OR trash in oil passageways from cam removal, or VCT screens plugged, OR 'spurious' current flowing in VCT solenoids when PCM is not 'calling for retard', the same symptoms can occur. Removing the pan is relatively simple - and from there, I suspect you could also see if tone ring is correct.