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Agreed. As far as I know - both codes are immediate. Carefully analyze freeze frame data for confirmation, but I can't dispute your assessment.
Both dropping oil pan and checking oil pressure are worthwhile and needed efforts.
Another "_POSSIBILITY_" (since you have the same code for BOTH banks - less likely bad part or same mistake on BOTH sides), there is one common component that can have the same detrimental effect to both sides. The Crankshaft Tone Ring. Are you CERTAIN that you installed it with the fingers pointing FORWARD? Do you have photos from which you might be able to tell? It WILL go on backwards and run. But the effect of installing backwards moves the missing tooth about 10 degrees - totally screwing up the engines timing relationship between crankshaft TDC as to phaser positioning. Just a thought.
As for oil pressure at startup - (no dispute intended) - something about the VVT design to keep in mind is: THIS is the 'design purpose' of that little spring loaded locking pin inside the Phaser.
Having monitored VVT / Phaser operation on my truck extensively via the earlier linked Torque Pro screen, I can tell you with certainty that: - when any retard is in effect (above 25% engine load and greater than 800 RPM), there (should be) PLENTY of oil pressure to operate properly functioning Phasers. As 'soon as' you 'decelerate' or load drops below 25% or RPMs drop below 800 - the VCT Solenoids totally 'close' - thus routing 100% oil flow into advance chambers at very sufficient pressure (~40 to 50). As RPMs decline, Oil pressure declines below ~ 25 lbs, the little spring under the locking pin SHOULD LOCK the Phaser at that 'base' position.
See Photo. The Plunger is removed, but goes on top of the spring and it locks into the other half of the Phaser at full advance, preventing movement between the two halves. There are very small oil passageways to the top of the plunger allowing oil pressure to depress the spring "UNLOCKING" it as oil pressure exceeds about ~25 lbs (or more ??). That condition should be guaranteed above 800 RPM (the minimum point where the PCM will call for retard - provided IF and only if engine load > 25%). This design should operate like a C-Saw, Phasers locked below 25 lbs (idle conditions), unlocked above 25 lbs (retard requirement conditions).
If the above 'facilities' are functioning properly, when the engine is idled down and shut off, the phasers should be in the locked state for subsequent startup. It should NOT matter if there is ZERO oil pressure (as far as Phasers are concerned). The locking pins should prevent valve spring resistance from dragging the phasers into retarded position. If it DOES NOT HAPPEN - you will get a P0012 or P0022 code - AND/OR a P0340 or P0345, but it is NOT dependent on oil pressure at startup - it has to do with phasers not locking at shutdown.
///Chain tensioners are a different subject - but the spring tension in them SHOULD be adequate to prevent a new chain from jumping teeth before oil pressure comes up.///
EDIT: Afterthought: So as to NOT mislead or cause others reading this to misdiagnose - This is NOT to say oil pressure in your case is not your problem. If trash is being sucked up into the OP screen causing air bubbles in oil galleys, OR trash in oil passageways from cam removal, or VCT screens plugged, OR 'spurious' current flowing in VCT solenoids when PCM is not 'calling for retard', the same symptoms can occur. Removing the pan is relatively simple - and from there, I suspect you could also see if tone ring is correct.
Once I have the pan off, I'll check the tone ring but I'm pretty sure it's on right. There were no front or back markings in it, so I put it with the protruding side sticking out towards to cover.
Man, taking this pan off is no joke. Ford ought to be ashamed of themselves making it so difficult to get to.
Had not seen it in your posts before or your profile, but if you are dealing with a 4x4, this the best "HOW TO" that I've seen on any of the forums covering 'Oil Pan Removal' on the 4x4. https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...-pan-pump.html
Had not seen it in your posts before or your profile, but if you are dealing with a 4x4, this the best "HOW TO" that I've seen on any of the forums covering 'Oil Pan Removal' on the 4x4. https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...-pan-pump.html
Thanks for the article. I actually got it out before I saw it though. Man the pickup was 100% plugged. We cleaned it out, and are in the process of putting it back together now. Hopefully it goes together better than it came out.
I'll let you know once it's back together if the problem is resolved or not.
Also, while it is off it gave me a chance to confirm the tone ring is correct. The teeth are facing out towards the front of the cover.
This is very good news. It is a piece of SOLID evidence that can 'logically' explain the symptoms that lead you to do the timing job in the first place -- AND the symptoms continuing after the timing job.
The second problem (P0204) caused accidently while fixing first.
This is very good news. It is a piece of SOLID evidence that can 'logically' explain the symptoms that lead you to do the timing job in the first place -- AND the symptoms continuing after the timing job.
The second problem (P0204) caused accidently while fixing first.
I think you got it.
I think we did too! Buttoned it all back up, cleared codes, ran smooth and quiet for 15 minutes. Stopped it, started it back up. cel. Forgot to plug temperature sensor back in!! Clesree codes, plugged in, repeated. No more cel!!! Yaaay. Going to finish putting the lower end back on and take it for a drive.
Also, the injector was not plugged in all the way. I removed the plug, there was debris in it. Cleaned it out, pushed it in... 'click' woot woot!
Well, damnit. I shot myself in the foot and spoke too soon.
We drove it about 2 miles up the street to put gas in it (it was chugging for gas in the driveway). It ran smooth on the way up there, and halfway back. Coming off a stop sign we gave it some gas and it stalled right out. Started right back up to a CEL and running rough. We got it home without it stalling again.
Put it in the driveway and scanned it. Too lean code (I apologize, I don't remember which one), and sure enough P3040 and P3045 again.
The first code, I choked up to possible being because the fuel system was ran really low, and it sucked in some air.
Cleared the codes, ran it through numerous start/stops until the CEL came on again.
This time, it was just the P3040 and P3045 codes again. Aside from it fluctuating the idle a bit between 250 and 750 (on letting off acceleration), it was still quiet, didn't hear the knock noise, and it was still smooth (again, aside from the fluctuating idle)).
I unplugged both VCTs and the idle seemed to smooth out, although after that it threw the 20 and 22 code for not being plugged in.
I got upset after spending all day working on it and walked away. At this point, I told him until we find what's wrong with it, drive it as it's still driveable.Well, damnit. I shot myself in the foot and spoke too soon.
We drove it about 2 miles up the street to put gas in it (it was chugging for gas in the driveway). It ran smooth on the way up there, and halfway back. Coming off a stop sign we gave it some gas and it stalled right out. Started right back up to a CEL and running rough. We got it home without it stalling again.
Put it in the driveway and scanned it. Too lean code (I apologize, I don't remember which one), and sure enough P3040 and P3045 again. Oh, and a code for bank A camshsft being over retarded.
The first code, I choked up to possible being because the fuel system was ran really low, and it sucked in some air.
Cleared the codes, ran it through numerous start/stops until the CEL came on again.
This time, it was just the P3040 and P3045 codes again. (And the over retarded error again) Aside from it fluctuating the idle a bit between 250 and 750 (on letting off acceleration), it was still quiet, didn't hear the knock noise, and it was still smooth (again, aside from the fluctuating idle)).
I unplugged both VCTs and the idle seemed to smooth out, although after that it threw the 20 and 22 code for not being plugged in.
I got upset after spending all day working on it and walked away. At this point, I told him until we find what's wrong with it, drive it as it's still driveable.
Wow. Don't want to sing too early, but I think this is a great success story. Let us know how the test drive goes. If you're experience is like mine - I really believe my truck started to free up and run better and better over about a week of driving. Seemed to pick up power as PCM adjusted its settings.
You may not be a mechanic -- (neither am I), but you are a very capable DIYer. I would like to commend your willingness to consider and accept guidance and critique, with only tactful decent or disagreement. Hope to see you pass on your experience / acquired knowledge to others here.
==============
EDIT: Oh. Likewise spook to soon [except my last paragraph] and I understand your frustration. You didn't "Shoot yourself in the foot TOTALLY", your efforts were NOT wasted cleaning out the oil pump screen and pan. It needed to be done no matter what else is a problem. And the way it runs, when it's running good, is the way you can expect it to run all the time. So - rest up and we will carefully and systematically take another run at it.
We need to know a little more about effect of unplugging VCTs , if it runs smooth ALL THE TIME with them unplugged - etc.
Last edited by F150Torqued; Jan 20, 2018 at 05:41 PM.
Reason: Spook -a _little bit_ to soon - but not WAY to soon.
Wow. Don't want to sing too early, but I think this is a great success story. Let us know how the test drive goes. If you're experience is like mine - I really believe my truck started to free up and run better and better over about a week of driving. Seemed to pick up power as PCM adjusted its settings.
You may not be a mechanic -- (neither am I), but you are a very capable DIYer. I would like to commend your willingness to consider and accept guidance and critique, with only tactful decent or disagreement. Hope to see you pass on your experience / acquired knowledge to others here.
LOL we posted at the same time.
No room to celebrate yet. Although better, it's not perfect.
Wow. Don't want to sing too early, but I think this is a great success story. Let us know how the test drive goes. If you're experience is like mine - I really believe my truck started to free up and run better and better over about a week of driving. Seemed to pick up power as PCM adjusted its settings.
You may not be a mechanic -- (neither am I), but you are a very capable DIYer. I would like to commend your willingness to consider and accept guidance and critique, with only tactful decent or disagreement. Hope to see you pass on your experience / acquired knowledge to others here.
==============
EDIT: Oh. Likewise spook to soon [except my last paragraph] and I understand your frustration. Your efforts were NOT wasted cleaning out the oil pump screen and pan. It needed to be done no matter what else is a problem. And the way it runs, when it's running good, is the way you can expect it to run all the time. So - rest up and we will carefully and systematically take another run at it.
We need to know a little more about effect of unplugging VCTs , if it runs smooth ALL THE TIME with them unplugged - etc.
It runs a lot smoother with them unplugged. After it's warm it still fluctuates a bit, but not much. Maybe between 700-750. Perhaps a bit lower.
Ok. Here are some more factual 'tid bits' to consider and weigh against your symptoms.
P0340 and P0345 tells us that when the PCM polled the CPS sensor to detect the appripriate Phaser finger, to determine if the CAM angle is exactly where it commanded them to be 'per Requested Cam Retard' (necessary to calculate CAM ERROR) --- It couldn't EVEN find the damn phaser finger!!!! - within the degree range alloted under the software. (CPS signal is not interrupt driven). This could be caused by the Phaser finger being in the WRONG position -- OR a non working CPS sensor or noisy CPS circuit.
You tell us it runs smoother with VCTs unplugged. Unplugging them (while engine is OFF after running smooth) should insure phasers are at base -zero retard- position (and hopelfully locked by the locking pin) - assuming adequate oil pressure positioned them at full advance when PCM commanded ZERO retard - ie: below 800 RPM or 25% engine load just before shutdown) - should indicate cams are remaining synchronized if VCTs are not activated.
Can you drive it a few days (drive cycles) in that state without a P0340 DTC? (understanding you will have a DTC from open circuit VCTs - and probable degridated performance from the PCM knowing it can't effectuate VVT)
Ok. Here are some more factual 'tid bits' to consider and weigh against your symptoms.
P0340 and P0345 tells us that when the PCM polled the CPS sensor to detect the appripriate Phaser finger, to determine if the CAM angle is exactly where it commanded them to be 'per Requested Cam Retard' (necessary to calculate CAM ERROR) --- It couldn't EVEN find the damn phaser finger!!!! - within the degree range alloted under the software. (CPS signal is not interrupt driven). This could be caused by the Phaser finger being in the WRONG position -- OR a non working CPS sensor or noisy CPS circuit.
You tell us it runs smoother with VCTs unplugged. Unplugging them (while engine is OFF after running smooth) should insure phasers are at base -zero retard- position (and hopelfully locked by the locking pin) - assuming adequate oil pressure positioned them at full advance when PCM commanded ZERO retard - ie: below 800 RPM or 25% engine load just before shutdown) - should indicate cams are remaining synchronized if VCTs are not activated.
Can you drive it a few days (drive cycles) in that state without a P0340 DTC? (understanding you will have a DTC from open circuit VCTs - and probable degridated performance from the PCM knowing it can't effectuate VVT)
Thanks for calling me out. I should have been clearer about what 'dots' I hoped to connect. Actually, your forcing me to think it through more carefully indicates any result would be inconclusive - anyway. AND highlights the reason I have never been a big fan of the procedure . Except for one case - to see if it will hold a rough idle 'at bay' if unplugged when running smooth. Can be indicative of sticking VCT spool valve or spurious current in VCT electrical circuit. But little more.
It would be nice to know if the problem is mechanical (timing a tooth off, defective-or-damaged phaser, obstructed oil passages, sticky VCT), or electrical (CPS circuit noisy). But this one is difficult to sort out.
The nature of P0340 and P0345 can be electrical or mechanical. This is what I 'hate' about the published diagnostic information. In ALL DTC descriptions that I have seen it is described ONLY as an electrical 'circuit' issue. But a far more succinct description would be that: Based on the CPS signal, the PCM is intermittently missing (P0344 P0349), or cannot detect (P0340 P0345), Phaser finger (ie: cam) position - during the time period allotted - based on crankshaft position. Certainly an OPEN CPS circuit, or an noisy one, will cause this. But so _can_ mechanical causes. It would be nice to know WHICH it is.
BUT -- I can find both mechanical / electrical explinations for ANY result we had from running with VCT's unplugged. So it is basically a worthless exercise.
I agree with @Steve(ill) that it would still be good to know what cold/hot idle oil pressure is. It's better that it was after your cleaning the oil screen. But still _COULD POSSIBLY_ be an issue.
Based on these fact: had same timing codes prior to timing job; effects both banks; timing errors or jumped timing slim chance to effect both banks; you have reason to believe timing was correct --- perhaps the electrical path is best to 'ring out' first.
Can you let us know the Brand / model code reader you got. I would like to know more about it to suggest things to look into for the rough idle / surging idle RPM. As for rough Idle -- I'd like to know what short term and long term fuel trims look like. Can it graph O2 sensor voltages?
I don't think that it can do o2 sensor readings like you asked. It was an inexpensive 50$ scanner I bought from harbor freight. It's a zurich zr4.
I'm almost wondering.. if the oil pickup really was that plugged up, it's possible gear damage happened to the pump internally and even though it's now pumping, it's not pumping optimally. Since I don't want to do any more work on this truck right now, as I've already spent nearly nearly 2 full weeks on it now, I was going to have him run it with the solenoids disconnected, as it appears to run that way. Then, once I get the motivation to jump back into it again, I plan on checking the pressure to see what we have.
EDIT: I was wrong. It idles smoother with the solenoids unplugged, but it drives worse. If he goes and stops it stalls out. He had to keep his foot on the gas a little at a stop to keep it running.
I understand 'Grr' - and that motivation thing. Sorry.
Yea it looks like the Zr4 is not going to give us any kind of live data - or pending (grey) codes.
Not a 'silver lining' but a couple of things occur to me. Timing codes are, (as far as I know), almost all IMMEDIATE. If you didn't see a 0340 series or a P0011 / 12 series, that should be a good thing timing wise - even with VCTs unplugged (I do understand THAT will give a code). But lots of other code require multiple occurrences or occurrences in multiple drive cycles.
There are numerous things that can cause stalling / fluctuating idle / ragged idle. Since live data or pending codes are not available, it could serve useful purpose to drive it in hopes a code shows up.
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I should have been clearer about what 'dots' I hoped to connect. Actually, your forcing me to think it through more carefully indicates any result would be inconclusive - anyway. AND highlights the reason I have never been a big fan of the procedure . Except for one case - to see if it will hold a rough idle 'at bay' if unplugged when running smooth. Can be indicative of sticking VCT spool valve or spurious current in VCT electrical circuit. But little more.
Sorry.