5.4l 3v Timing - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

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5.4l 3v Timing

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  #1  
Old 01-16-2018, 07:37 AM
ex0r
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5.4l 3v Timing

Hello.

I recently pulled this engine apart to redo the phasers, chains, guides and tensioners on my 2005 ford f150, and before I button it all back up, I have a question about the timing.

I pulled the cams out of the car before I set the timing dot on the crank at 6 'clock. I then reinstalled the cams in their correct(ish) orientation to put the chains on. I know that the arrows are supposed to align with the center of the two marks, but I am unable to get it aligned that way. Is the way I have it adequate, or does it absolutely need to be in the center of the two? (The crank dot has the mark exactly where it needs to be).

Because of the pressure on the valve springs, as soon as I turn the cams just a little to line the marks up, the guide side of the chain becomes extremely sloppy, and as soon as I remove tension on the cam (from turning it), it tightens right back up again, so tight that it's impossible to put the tensioner arm on the other side (while the came side still stays sloppy). The only way I could get it, was for the L and R arrows to line up in the middle of the other link on both sides. (It's the same link, just reversed on either side).

Also, I am sorry that the images are flipped. The forums appear to do it automatically and not sure why.
 
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  #2  
Old 01-17-2018, 07:57 AM
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NO SIR. That is NOT OK. This is the reason the standard procedure calls for removal of certain roller/followers - to relieve valve spring tension.


I can't tell from the photo's if the crank dot is at absolute 6:00 or close - but it is close enough.


You can have a helper 'torque' with a breaker bar / socket on the phaser bolt and move the cam enough against spring tension to get the chain in position - and to relieve chain tension to where you can get the bolts started in the tensioner arm / chain tensioner.


But do not proceed the way they are. BIG MISTAKE
 
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by F150Torqued View Post
NO SIR. That is NOT OK. This is the reason the standard procedure calls for removal of certain roller/followers - to relieve valve spring tension.


I can't tell from the photo's if the crank dot is at absolute 6:00 or close - but it is close enough.


You can have a helper 'torque' with a breaker bar / socket on the phaser bolt and move the cam enough against spring tension to get the chain in position - and to relieve chain tension to where you can get the bolts started in the tensioner arm / chain tensioner.


But do not proceed the way they are. BIG MISTAKE
Thank you for your response. That is exactly what we did, and got it lined up perfectly. We got it all back together today but it's still idling rough at warm and losing oil pressure (and cel) so I think we may have debris in the pickup. We never dropped the pan to clean it out, just used our hands after the cover was off. Runs beautiful and quiet at first start up.

Not sure what else the problem could be.
 
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:35 PM
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Definitely need to drop pan and clean broken plastic guides out of the bottom of the pan. They sink to the bottom of the oil pan right below the pickup screen. When oil thins out and starts circulating good, the suction picks them up and 'bingo', oil pressure goes to hell and everything else follows - lifter noise, phasers not returning to base position or advancing properly ---- etc.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:18 AM
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Any suggestions if we drop the pan and there's no blockage?
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:25 AM
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Check for excessive crankshaft endplay.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:54 AM
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How do you check that? I am trying to rule out all possibilities at once instead of tearing it apart a bunch of times to check stuff.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:43 PM
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So I sat down and talked to my dad tonight after he got out of work. We had a couple of questions we came up with..

#1.) What are the chances it jumped time, or one of the new components broke already?

#2.) If it didn't jump time or none of the components broke, how likely is it the pump failed (What is the failure rate on these)?

#3.) Is it possible something got into the oil pump, or past it, and caused a blockage?

#4.) If something is causing a blockage somewhere in the engine, how do we get it out? (In one of the passages or something)

#5.) What are the chances something else (major or minor), unrelated to the timing at all is wrong?

We are considering pulling it all apart again, but want to rule out the possibility of something else being catastrophically wrong with it before we invest all the time in tearing it apart.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:25 PM
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Go to youtube and look up a guy named Fordtechmakeyouloco. He has an excellent video on how to time your engine. Watch the video and all your timing questions will be answered. Also use steel tensioners from an earlier 2v motor and you won't be sorry. No silicone seal to blow out as on the plastic ones.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:27 PM
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I did the work watching his 4 part timing job. I didn't have a question about the timing, I'm asking about the continued issues after the timing job has been done.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ex0r View Post
So I sat down and talked to my dad tonight after he got out of work. We had a couple of questions we came up with..
#1.) What are the chances it jumped time, or one of the new components broke already?
#2.) If it didn't jump time or none of the components broke, how likely is it the pump failed (What is the failure rate on these)?
#3.) Is it possible something got into the oil pump, or past it, and caused a blockage?
#4.) If something is causing a blockage somewhere in the engine, how do we get it out? (In one of the passages or something)
#5.) What are the chances something else (major or minor), unrelated to the timing at all is wrong?
We are considering pulling it all apart again, but want to rule out the possibility of something else being catastrophically wrong with it before we invest all the time in tearing it apart.

I'll try to give (non-expert / but experienced user) answers to your questions - but I have a couple of questions for you too.


a.) What brand of parts did you install?
b.) What ALL parts are new - specifically VCT Solenoids?
c.) Did you remove and clean VCT Solenoid bodies?
d.) Describe what (if anything) was done to or with the lash adjusters (any 'tick' symptoms)?
e.) Do you have any codes? What are they?
f.) What scanner/code reader capability (if any) do you have to examine in-depth OBDII diagnostic data. There is a wealth of data available from the on board computer about what is going on. I applaud your father for his input, but these vehicles are nothing like the ones he dealt with or worked on years ago. You are trying to 'pin the tail on the donkey' blindfolded without so more data.


#1.) I highly doubt it jumped time. New chains / guides leave little slack in the chains to jump time, even with ZERO oil pressure. New parts certainly CAN fail or be defective 'out of the box' - But I submit, that should NOT be the focus in absence of some data (such as scanner data) to indicate problems with one of the components.


#2.) Oil pressure is important - but its importance is OVER RATED in cam problems (IF everything else is working properly). The Oil pump (a gearator device) is unlikely to just FAIL. Although it is preferred around these parts to replace it with an upgraded part with the timing job. It can be checked fairly easily with a brass "T" at the oil pressure sensor and a temporary oil pressure gauge - (OR best, a permanent aftermarket OP gauge).


#3.) It is 'almost' impossible junk got into / past the oil pump and caused an oil galley blockage? (Oil Filter _WILL_ stop it from entering the 'closed galley' system. If you ONLY replaced timing components (without removing VCT valve bodies or cams /lash-adjusters), you did not open up any galley where junk could get in there. ((Although, at this moment, I have questions about the fine screens on the VCT solenoids and the same type fine screen INSIDE the VCT valve bodies. They may be suspect if not cleaned / replaced).


#4.) VCT screens will catch crap in oil passages in the head before entering the VCT valve body. (it's relatively easy to check / clean / replace). The VCT Valve body would require going back into the front cover. But I would not suspect this without more pinpointed diagnostics.


#5.) I think the chances of OTHER major or minor unrelated problems are present - IS SLIM TO NONE. Most likely -- o) Oil pickup screen -- o) Non-OEM (DORMAN) phasers -- o) Bad / Sticky VCT or dirty vct screen -- O) poor electrical connection to PCM or sensors -- o) vacuum line wrong or not connected ----- or something else 'stupid' that we have ALL overlooked or forgotten.
 

Last edited by F150Torqued; 01-18-2018 at 09:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:07 PM
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Thank you for your very detailed explanations. I can tell you the parts I bought came as a kit, but they were not ford originals. I spent a total of about 680 on all the parts online.

The entire parts list I got was:

Cam phasers
2 timing chains
2 tensioners
2 guides & 2 arms
Crank gear
2 vct solenoids
2 cam sensors

When I had the cams out, I visually inspected the rollers, and looked at the lasher's the best I could. None appeared to be stuck or non operational. There also was no ticking or signs of noise when we first started it up after putting it back together.

I am not sure what the CEL is now as I can't get the truck to the parts store to scan it (and I don't have one). When we first ran it, there was no CEL. After it warmed up and started running rough, the CEL came on, and now it's on constant even after it's turned off and turned back on later (and no longer running rough).

I'm willing to bet a little it's something in the pickup, but I am still confused how it could only be a problem after it's warmed up, unless it requires a lot more oil pressure when it's warmer. I am also willing to first check that as that's a rather quick thing to drop and check. I am also willing to disassemble the timing components again if there's a chance it's something under there, but if it's a higher chance there's a major issue elsewhere in the motor, then it's not worth putting any more time into, if that makes any sense.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:41 PM
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It might be good to TEE an actual pressure gauge into the sensor and know the exact pressure.. Sounds like pressure drops off when it is hot.... but is is low when its cold, or good ? Might be a worn out pump.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:44 PM
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son had the phaser problem on his 2006 Expedition.. During rebuild, the mechanic said they need to replace the oil pump because it is a weak design.. Plate on end bows and gasket blows out under high pressure.... Don't know for sure, but that's what he was told......... you might get the ACTUAL pressure to see whats really happening.
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by steve(ill) View Post
It might be good to TEE an actual pressure gauge into the sensor and know the exact pressure.. Sounds like pressure drops off when it is hot.... but is is low when its cold, or good ? Might be a worn out pump.
I was watching a video to check oil pressure using an actual gauge. My next step I think before I do anything else is to remove the pressure sensor and hook a gauge up to it to check the actual pressure. What are the cold & hot readings supposed to be ideally?

Also, if the problem is related to the oil pressure and the vct system, is it possible to unplug the solenoids so it will stay running long enough to get it to the auto parts store to scan it? It's about 2 miles away.
 
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