Oil Change Issue Update
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: Anchorage, Alaska
I think Crazy001 has a valid point. If the oil can blow by the rings on any stroke (since the oil is continuously splashed up into the piston and out the oil control ring to lubricate the cylinder), then diesel, with its obvious difference in viscosity, has a better chance of leaking past the compression and scraper rings on the exhaust stroke, then back into the crankcase via the oil control ring.
I think the amount of fuel in the oil depends on the amount of regens performed. More parked regens, more fuel used to burn out the DPF. Less fuel used on passive regens.
I think the amount of fuel in the oil depends on the amount of regens performed. More parked regens, more fuel used to burn out the DPF. Less fuel used on passive regens.
Super Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 25,479
Likes: 742
From: Isanti, MN
10% dilution in 10,000 miles isn't that bad since it is DIESEL! It's DIESEL. If it were GASOLINE, I'd be concerned.
You subscribe to the paranoia and feed off of it. YOU need to learn about diesel fuel properties before flipping out about it. Haven't you ever given it a thought about why the dealerships, Navistar, let alone FORD isn't worried about it unless it's excessive?
You subscribe to the paranoia and feed off of it. YOU need to learn about diesel fuel properties before flipping out about it. Haven't you ever given it a thought about why the dealerships, Navistar, let alone FORD isn't worried about it unless it's excessive?
Article found HERE:
Originally Posted by Machinery Lubrication
Fuel Dilution
Frequent starts of an engine, excessive idling and cold running conditions can lead to moderate fuel dilution problems. Severe dilution (excess of two percent) is associated with leakage, fuel injector problems and impaired combustion efficiency. These are symptomatic of serious conditions that cannot be corrected by an oil change. According to one reference, 0.36 percent of total fuel consumption ends up in the crankcase. Problems associated with fuel dilution include:
Diesel fuel dilution in cold operating conditions can cause waxing. During startup, this can result in low oil pressure and starvation conditions.
Diesel fuel carries unsaturated aromatic molecules into the motor oil which are pro-oxidants. This can result in a premature loss of base number (loss of corrosion protection) and oxidative thickening of the motor oil, causing deposits and mild starvation.
Fuel dilution can drop the viscosity of a motor oil from say, a 15W40 to a 5W20. This collapses critical oil film thicknesses, resulting in premature combustion zone wear (piston, rings and liner) and crankcase bearing wear.
Fuel dilution from defective injectors commonly causes wash-down of oil on cylinder liners which accelerates ring, piston and cylinder wear. It also causes high blow-by conditions and increased oil consumption (reverse blow-by).
Severe fuel dilution dilutes the concentration of oil additives and hence, diluting their effectiveness.
Fuel dilution by biodiesel may result in higher than normal problems compared to diesel refined by crude stock. These problems include oxidation stability, filter plugging issues, deposit formation and volatility resulting in crankcase accumulations.
Frequent starts of an engine, excessive idling and cold running conditions can lead to moderate fuel dilution problems. Severe dilution (excess of two percent) is associated with leakage, fuel injector problems and impaired combustion efficiency. These are symptomatic of serious conditions that cannot be corrected by an oil change. According to one reference, 0.36 percent of total fuel consumption ends up in the crankcase. Problems associated with fuel dilution include:
Diesel fuel dilution in cold operating conditions can cause waxing. During startup, this can result in low oil pressure and starvation conditions.
Diesel fuel carries unsaturated aromatic molecules into the motor oil which are pro-oxidants. This can result in a premature loss of base number (loss of corrosion protection) and oxidative thickening of the motor oil, causing deposits and mild starvation.
Fuel dilution can drop the viscosity of a motor oil from say, a 15W40 to a 5W20. This collapses critical oil film thicknesses, resulting in premature combustion zone wear (piston, rings and liner) and crankcase bearing wear.
Fuel dilution from defective injectors commonly causes wash-down of oil on cylinder liners which accelerates ring, piston and cylinder wear. It also causes high blow-by conditions and increased oil consumption (reverse blow-by).
Severe fuel dilution dilutes the concentration of oil additives and hence, diluting their effectiveness.
Fuel dilution by biodiesel may result in higher than normal problems compared to diesel refined by crude stock. These problems include oxidation stability, filter plugging issues, deposit formation and volatility resulting in crankcase accumulations.
Originally Posted by ChargersFanInCO
Why don't you just come on out and tell everyone to change their oil once a week, check it 4 times a day, change the fuel filters every 2,000 miles and replace the radiators upon delivery? (ok, the radiators were crappy) EVERY extreme story I've read about a blown engine on ANY of the forums had my bull*****-meter pegged due to a lack of maintenance, or they admitted it outright. Christ, there's a guy on one of the threads that hasn't changed his fuel filters since he bought the truck 60,000+ miles ago!
Because of all these fine folks and resources found on here I like to think I have a pretty fair understanding of these engines. There is always more to learn, but when a new 6.4L owner comes on here and makes a pretentious statement regarding a "myth" that has been proven correct over and over through numerous dealer techs as well as members with tuned trucks posting oil analyses, I have to say something.
This is a known issue. I stand behind that.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,123
Likes: 35
From: N. Fort Worth, tx
some of that I can agree with some not so much.
some of that artical I take it as being related to huei systems. some of it relates to both common rail and huei.
the only issues I have seen as a result of this has been from lack of maintance.
some of that artical I take it as being related to huei systems. some of it relates to both common rail and huei.
the only issues I have seen as a result of this has been from lack of maintance.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,123
Likes: 35
From: N. Fort Worth, tx
what will happen is the crankcase will overfill to a point that oil/fuel mix is then pushed in the cac. the engine will then start to provide its own sorce of fuel from the cac and melt pistons and or valve when it happens. cyclinder #2 is the favorite for melting with this concern.
To further the point I do my truck every 5k. I do not tow, I dont really ever carry a load at all. Its more of a very heavy car for me. I run the freway 95% of the miles and I run @70mph.
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Cross-Country
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
OK, now I have to ask, should I be concerned or not? I tow a 17,000 lbs 5th wheel (75% of my mileage is towing), change my oil religiously at 5000 miles, change oil filter with each oil change, change fuel filters at 10,000 miles.
Is there something else I should be doing relative to “diesel in oil” issue? Truck has about 33,000 miles on it?
Again, appreciate everyone's input, thanks.
Is there something else I should be doing relative to “diesel in oil” issue? Truck has about 33,000 miles on it?
Again, appreciate everyone's input, thanks.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
I concur with not waiting 10,000 miles to change the oil. My point was that 2qts (or less as my level hasn't changed) of dilution in a 15qt system isn't going to cook the cat. 10,000 miles for me would be more than 6 months, as I typically average 1300 miles a month. Do you believe it should be changed at 5000 miles, even if there isn;t any appreciable oil level change, or can it go 7500 miles? My oil changes are free, so it doesn't matter to me, but the dealer wants it every 10,000 miles. That said, if I went in there with a higher-than-normal oil level, I'm sure they'd change it.
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Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
OK, now I have to ask, should I be concerned or not? I tow a 17,000 lbs 5th wheel (75% of my mileage is towing), change my oil religiously at 5000 miles, change oil filter with each oil change, change fuel filters at 10,000 miles.
Is there something else I should be doing relative to “diesel in oil” issue? Truck has about 33,000 miles on it?
Again, appreciate everyone's input, thanks.
Is there something else I should be doing relative to “diesel in oil” issue? Truck has about 33,000 miles on it?
Again, appreciate everyone's input, thanks.
Junior User
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Ashburnham, ma
I have learned in my 21 years in the CG that 10% FOD is a lot of fuel oil dilution and could cause a crankcase explosion, hell I learned that the first year when a cat genset decided it didn't like a "closed crankcase". I have 18 cylinder Paxman-vellenta's diesels on the patrol boat, governed to 2880 hp @ 1500 rpms. My guys do oil viscosity tests every 4 hours while running, analysis every quarter. Right now I'm having the oil changed at around 1000 hours, @4500 hours annually, this is because the engine will idle 22-23 hours a day while "drifting", we all know idling is bad. The most FOD we have had is .07%, that is well below 10% FOD. I will also add these engines use oil, the cylinder liners have thousands of little dimples so it is not uncommon to use 2-4 gallons of oil in an 8 hour period running 1500 rpms, its the design, why don't I get more dilution then? Because you are not supposed to. These engines also have @ 80 gallons of oil. 2 quarts of diesel in 15 quarts of oil is a lot, figure out the percentage and that is bad, throws the viscosity all out of whack and also the lubricity of the oil. My theory on this is if it's ok then why don't all the diesel's "make" oil when the oil change comes around? Because they are not supposed to...........
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
I concur with not waiting 10,000 miles to change the oil. My point was that 2qts (or less as my level hasn't changed) of dilution in a 15qt system isn't going to cook the cat. 10,000 miles for me would be more than 6 months, as I typically average 1300 miles a month. Do you believe it should be changed at 5000 miles, even if there isn;t any appreciable oil level change, or can it go 7500 miles? My oil changes are free, so it doesn't matter to me, but the dealer wants it every 10,000 miles. That said, if I went in there with a higher-than-normal oil level, I'm sure they'd change it.
Hotshot
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,591
Likes: 14
From: Pflugerville, tx
Chargers fan, hi. If it's on your mind and it sounds like it is, you can get an oil testing kit from a company called blackstone (I think). When you change your oil or have it changed you grab a small sample and send it in. In a few days you will get the report. Or, I guess you could grab a sample between changes and see what it has in it. Then, based on the results of the sample you set up a plan for your truck. You may be able to go 7500 or more but with the analysis (what this site needs is spell check) you will know exactly what you have. Thats how the fleet boys do it. I never did that with the previous truck but I'm gonna start with this one. Based on what I'm reading on here and a couple of other diesel forums this motor requires a high level of maintaining to stay out of "cab off land". I intend to give it that love.
ieSpell - Spell Checker add-on for Internet Explorer
and yes its, Blackstone Labs for the free oil sample kit, ($23 approx for the analysis)..
sam
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 102
From: Georgia
for spell checking install free iSpell for IE.. Firefox has it already
ieSpell - Spell Checker add-on for Internet Explorer
and yes its, Blackstone Labs for the free oil sample kit, ($23 approx for the analysis)..
sam
ieSpell - Spell Checker add-on for Internet Explorer
and yes its, Blackstone Labs for the free oil sample kit, ($23 approx for the analysis)..
sam
No, seriously, thank you.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
Chargers fan, hi. If it's on your mind and it sounds like it is, you can get an oil testing kit from a company called blackstone (I think). When you change your oil or have it changed you grab a small sample and send it in. In a few days you will get the report. Or, I guess you could grab a sample between changes and see what it has in it. Then, based on the results of the sample you set up a plan for your truck. You may be able to go 7500 or more but with the analasys (what this site needs is spell check) you will know exactly what you have. Thats how the fleet boys do it. I never did that with the previous truck but I'm gonna start with this one. Based on what I'm reading on here and a couple of other diesel forums this motor requires a high level of maintaining to stay out of "cab off land". I intend to give it that love.
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