Yes benshere, you are 25% out of control at the loss of a single wheels traction acceleration or lock-up. This is a very common ideal in teaching advanced driving skill. It is a theoretical ideal that applies to controlling vehicle dynamics. I can handle a spin drift, lock up, or burnout like anyone else. When its intentional its easy, you, nor I, have connfidence in our ability to control a loss of traction. Face it, you would soil your pants if the rear of you car stepped out a highway speeds. In fact anything over 35 MPH would send you and most anyone else into the ditch. The loss of traction in even one wheel is the beginning of the end. You have to understand that this is about traction control. All of us here can control an intentional loss of traction like a burn out, but I doubt few can handle much more than that, especially if it is unintentional.
As far as the %-differential in the wheel slip allowed, there is not a set percentage. It is the corralation of of many factors. The differential allowed for one speed would not be enough at another speed. By the same, does anybody know the % slip in a limited slip on a ford truck?
I know a lot of people here seem to have a distaste for the traction control on these trucks, but it is state of the art and will save lives.

 

Whalebird you are playing a symantics game here. I believe you are the one who made the statement that a single wheel spin meant "total" loss of control. I disagreed with that and said that it is only partial loss. You have just agreed. I did not need to know about "advanced driving skill" or "vehicle dymanics" for that, it is very very basic. Can you and I put that issue to rest?

Now you move to a condition of one wheel spin to a total spin at 35 MPH---well duh!! I dont have to do that to understand that I would soil my britches, therefore I take every precaution not to----with or without TC, Face it? I did that years ago where were you? Now to the % thing. I do not recall how the biasing for a LS is figured, but it varies with clutch wear and the tension of the "S" spring. FYI, F150's use a stronger spring than the car LS's. I agree with Mike that they are not very good (at least in our opinions) however, they may be good for someone else and I will not call those people dumb just because I dont like them. I had a trac-loc put in the Dana 61 in my 460 van, much later, I got in wet grass trying to back a boat and trailer. It behaved like an open diff, yes I can tell you about wheel spin, but I did not floor it and sling water all over the place, I controlled it. Yes, we are in agreement that it is all about traction control, never been otherwise. If you read my posts, you will notice I refer to "traction adders" that is the generic term but is not necessarily LS's. Actually I prefer the Gleason Torsen or the True Trac.

I am sure that the TC parameters are included in the data set in the processor. I could be wrong, but it seems logical that some slippage has to be allowed before the TC is activated or you couldnt even turn a corner. That is my specific question, if you dont know then simply say, "dont know". I am not interested in your appraisal as to why I want to know. If you know it to be a fact that it varies with speed, please let us know, otherwise you are guessing like the rest of us.

I have no distaste for traction control on trucks. Without further facts and given the explanations of other credible people as to how it behaves, I prefer a traction adder, not LS. It seems to me that a good traction adder makes TC moot. Unless you are totally stoooopid and punch it when it is slick------loss of both wheel traction will put you in the ditch, agreed?. Now whalebird, can we put this to rest? It seems to me we are in agreement about a lot of things here, Please put out of your mind that I have ever been against TC.

bsimmer--I have always talked about issues that caused TC to engage. Yes, I am in a world of my own, from the look of it, you arent likely to ever be in it---. Going back to the start of this thing, a few of us simply wanted to know some specifics about TC, so far, they have not been answered very well. I am curious as to how you did not know you were spinning immediately prior to the TC activation. Also curious why you would ever push it to the Revlimiter. If for grins, thats understandable. With or without TC I would avoid doing that. In your case either, I dont see a big disagreement, so lets quit playing symantics with each other and move on the the specifics of TC operation.

 

this is like the Refresh vs. All new debate.

No clear consensus will ever be reached. Too many people are perfectly happy to have their driving regulated and controlled with decisions made for them...and others like me can't stand any unecessary intervention.
I highly disagree. Maybe the 90's trucks sucked...I know my 1993 wasn't any good...but after 283,000 miles I can't blame it.

400 HP with my old 2006 FX4 after the Supercharger. Stock LS layed down the law everytime I felt frisky. It was only at the very end that I saw any indication that the LS was going out...and I don't blame it. 6,000 lbs + 400 HP = broken stuff. Especially with a Out of Control Driver like myself who enjoys 50% loss of traction

when 100% stock, I had that truck up on 2 wheels several times on a Jeep Trail in Tahauya National Forest in Washington State...stupid off-camber short wheelbase trails...1 tire in front, 1 in rear. at a crawl in 4x4lo I drove that truck into, and then out of the situation without any issue. The rear tire was doing all the pushing while my front "air" tire was trying to pull.

people always badmouth these LS units...but I'm quite happy with them. had 4 of them to date, and only 1 had failed (283,000 miles)

it's based off wheelspeed

that is why you must run the same diameter tires on all 4 corners. The ABS ring reports the speed and when the PCM sees that their is a discrepancy, it reacts.


very well documented problem in the Mustang scene. Alot of guys (myself included) like to run staggered setups with fat meats out back, and not so much up front.


but if the diameter is 0.5" or more off...then the ABS and TC have issues since the fronts are at different speeds from the rears....tricks the PCM into thinking wheelspin is occuring.

 

TX tylus , what my real curiousity is, what overspeed by any rear tire will it allow before it clamps the brakes. Does it brake at (examples only) 1 rpm difference or allow up to ~1000 rpm difference. I'm thinking it has to allow a certain amount of differential or you could not turn even a corner on the street. Depending upon what that allowance is, translates directly to how it performs in a off-road situation. It may be that it is already in a spin situation before TC really kicks in. The driver may not be able to feel the slippage, but as I believe you said, when the throttle control activates, you will know it! That means that some parameter in software has to be set for it to reference or it could kick in "all over the place" . Thats why I am a big fan of traction adders, including LS, although it isnt my favorite . Also I am not against TC/RSC/ABS just think the TC could by a little better designed. Cant give a really good reason why I want to know, probably the same reason some of us do our own work, use tuners (later) and on rare occasions do donuts in wet grass (been a long time).

Guess I am going to have to find me a nice big mudhole or field of wet grass to experience this thing in the Expy-----provided I can catch the wifey-poo out of town to do it. Dont need another A## chewing Out of all the years I have been driving a car with TC and the Bronco without LS, I have used ABS once and TC never (that I know about, certainly no uncontrolable wheel spin including boat ramps w/~8000# boat and trailer)

 

Again what you guys are forgetting is TC and ABS only funtion where there's bad driver control. ABS only functions when you push your break pedal to hard and TC only funtions when you give the truck to much power than what the conditions call for. This is bad driveing skill and has nothing to do with how bad the ABS or TC is. Like the other day when i come around that corner. Gave it to much power and TC controlled the oversteer and caught it before i even knew my wheels had started to slip. TC stopped me from doing a full 180 because i was not expecting to slide. Well if i was expecting that to come up then perhaps i may have been able to limit my power out of the corner but i cant see into the future so thats not possible. But also like some have said if it gives you problems off road then turn it off. None of you can see into the future and plan to control something before it happens. Most of the time you will be out of control way before you can do anything about it. I think there's to many people who over rate there self as drivers when they have nothing to back it up and think they cant drive to there ability when the nannys kick in. Well like anyone who has taken a advanced driving course will tell you is none of these nannys will come on if your driving correctly in the first place. ABS comes on your breaking to hard, TC comes on your applying to much power for the conditions. Good drivers dont do this.

 

Tylus - I just backed out of the thread and let the clueless take over. I could go have a good argument with the nearest brick wall and probably be more effective - at least it wouldn't spout back garbage!

 

I think it's more that some people have forgotten what it is like to have vehicular fun anymore.

 

I have to agree that this is a little off topic by now. My original intent was to offer a little of what I know to clarify the function of TC and stability managment. I admittedly was a bit perterbed at the prevailing attitude that "TC will not let me be stupid" _ there seems to be some of that going on here. I am a huge advocate of safety.
Nobody here is really out of line. I think I can understand everyone's point and really have little to argue. Overall I just want everyone to be safe and understand how these state of the art systems are saving lives.
benshere - symantics aside, I agree that something( slip diff at least) is a huge improvement. I have an 88 Bronco with 460k miles and the diff still has a little bite.
The Thorson style diff is a great one. In road-racing there was a debate about the clutch/torque diff and it came down to decelleration. they behave differently under negative torque. My pick was the Quaife diff.
I hope everyone had a good weekend.
God bless.

 

Whalebird--Roger that!

bsimmer---I can agree with you as well. People are frequently not as good as they think. Good drivers dont bang against TC or ABS, thanks, I take that as a compliment . 15 yrs with Bronco open diff and abs, abs application once and never uncontrolled wheel spin. 2003 Gran Marq, bought new, never against TC.

If you are ever in my area, I will be glad to give some advanced instruction to you, at a nominal charge, of course! Maybe I can help you keep from slipping and sliding, so much. It seems you do understand its all about control.

Guess that about winds my part of this up----excepting that some functional questions about TC did not get answered , Oh well, such is life, maybe another thread will come along that will give more answers.

Tylus---hurry up and put LS or something in your Expy, we need answers!!

 

So I guess I should fly into a name-calling rage now because I have been known to activate both.....

 

Apparently we're just not as good as the other people in this thread...

 

no can. eventually I'll get around to 4.30 gears and a Trac-Loc

I've got bumper-to-bumper warranty for the next 5yr and with the sheer # of electronics this beast has...I'm scared to touch anything.

I had planned on voiding the warranty with a Saleen blower...but they pulled it off the shelves due to CARB certification issues.

so my poor little Expy will be stock for at least the next 3 yrs. Maybe if I ever leave Hawaii I'll play with it...cause more than likely I'll be moving to Conneticuit (New London Base) and will need the extra traction then.

 

Tylus
I would love to see a supercharged expy. Three years ago I had a customer who enlisted me to install a vortec SC on a cadillac escalade LWB. It was sick how that thing would move. Breathtaking acceleration with 5 people. Hook that expy up!!

 

Tested out the RSC/TC/ESC system over the weekend on the 06 Explorer. I only went about 15 down a dirt/gravel/mud road as I had our infant and dog in the SUV. Nothing ever turned on and it was rocking and bouncing good. It's not a nice road.

Only when I actually put the driver's rear tire in the mud and floored it did I get the TC to light up. It did not abruptly chop the throttle. In fact it moved out of there in a big hurry with no wheelspin. Now my Explorer does have auto 4x4, but the TC did flash on the dash and there was no noticeable reduction in power.

I know for sure that my 2000 F150 with LSD would have been spinning for sure.

Mike

 

5star has yet to respond to my email questions.
I did test drive a 2010 from a dealers lot and also drove a neighbours 2009 and will not be buying a new F150.
I am hunting for a good used F150 around a 2007 or 2008 years instead.
Them who like there new trucks i'm glad you do they just are not right for an old codger like me that wants to drive it myself not be told what i may do by a computer that cant see the road.