X2... The one time I had a bad expirience was when I was hot stuff and 16 doin' 55 in a 25. I really had that one commin'. The next time was at night when I passed a car and hit 73mph (in a 55) and didn't get back in my lane untill well into "no passing zone", the officer was polite and explained clearly why I was pulled over and let me go with a warning. Now I rarely go more than 3 or 4mph over the limit and sometimes find myself going slower than the limit. It boggles my mind how some people can be so comfortable cruising around 15 or more mph over the speed limit. Enforcing stuff like speed limits, mudflaps and other equipment violations hardly quantifies encroaching on peoples freedoms, its simply protecting others in a dangerous and highly populated public transportation system. Wanna protect peoples freedoms? Join the NRA.

 

Very well written post, John.

I agree there are a lot of good officers, but sometimes even the good officers just don't use their brains.

Let me tell you a little story.

One day two years ago when I was 14 we had some family BS going on. My uncle assaulted my dad with a 1" by 1" oak surveyors stake. So when the cops came they arrested dad and my uncle because apparently if it is a family incident both parties are arrested no questions asked.

So they put them both in cars and one officer asked me where I lived. I told him I lived 2 towns over and he said "Oh well I would have to coordinate rides with 2 other departments to get you home. Do you think you can get a ride?" I told him I wasn't sure but maybe and he just walked back to his patrol car and left.

Had my dad left me there all by myself (keep in mind I was 14 at the time) he would've been arrested for endangering a minor. Why are these officers of the law not thinking of something like that?

The officer was a decent enough guy. There was certainly no malicious intent, but it certainly makes you wonder.

 

You are totally unqualified to make a sweeping generalization and indictment like that against the 700,000 sworn officers in the United States.....Representing thousands of different agencies. Totally. This is the biggest beef I have with your posts.

What do you know about any of this? Are you working amongst the districts and the departments? Are you making of ledger of who is doing what? Or who is or isn't doing their job? Or who is or isn't doing anything about the 'bad seeds'? What is your competency and/or research that is making these conclusions for you? Your statement about the 'good' men (if there are any left) says it all.

Translation: If you want the trust and respect of 'me'....Spend all your time chasing ghosts within your department and leave me alone to raise hell and speed and do whatever I want so I don't have to deal with any police officers.......

I'm starting to think that you are either a) naive, or b) spend all your time in front of a computer.......

What do you do for a living? Maybe I should tell you what you 'must' do.....

But for the record, police officers are not required, and are expected to refuse, orders which are a) illegal, or b) in contravention to the Constitution.......Aside from that....what is unjust or unreasonable? That's a question which would likely get two totally different answers from two different people. Some here would say a 65mph speed limit on the Interstate is 'unreasonable'.....Should I refuse that? Personally, I think a 28% tax rate on my income from the federal government is unjust. Should I refuse to pay that?

All over the place with this one......

I have no clue what you were getting at. You were blaming cops for everything and saying you hated them; then were bichin' about the laws.....Well.....

OK......elected officials make laws and cops enforce them......How would you have it work?

Wanna bet? Every time I arrest someone or write them a ticket, I decide that they broke the law. If it even goes to a jury trial (rare), the jury decides whether or not the defendant's guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Yes. And a cop deciding, with probable cause, that a person 'broke the law', and further deciding that this person's freedom will be temporarily suspended by being placed in handcuffs and carted off to jail to face the rest of the legal system is PART of that 'due process'......

 

Where are you getting these numbers?

Some do. Probably quite a few do. I don't, and I don't like it when others do.


Nature of the beast. If a trooper is running stationary radar on the interstate and he clocks a guy (or girl) going 80 in a 65......That guy (or girl) is a half-mile down the road before he gets the patrol car rolling. Of COURSE he has to speed to catch up. But think of it this way....The original speeder has been going that speed for god knows how many miles (dozens? hundreds?)....putting everyone in danger. The trooper will catch up to the speeder within a couple of miles, and while that blue light is on, folks within eyeshot are slowing down and watching their speeds (not always.....).

What do you suggest in this case? No speeding enforcement?

 

Hey Pete - I hate to hear that happened and it's unfortunate. I will assure you that had that happened here, you'd have had a ride. Domestic violence laws are a good but weird thing. States all have their own definition of what constitutes domestic violence and while I'm not familiar with CT law, I can offer some insight into VA law.

In a domestic violence situation in VA, the officer has to determine the Predominant Physical Aggressor. This is not as easy as it may sound. In a situation involving man and wife, for instance, you have to look at the totality of the circumstances, the physical evidence present, and lastly, which of the two has the ability to inflict the most harm. Again, this isn't always easy. In a situation like your dad's, in VA, more than likely, your uncle would have gone to jail and your dad would have received a subpeona to testify. I can't pass judgement on another LE agency in another state with differing laws so I won't condemn them for doing what they did nor try to second guess their actions other than leaving you at 14 to fend for yourself.

In VA, the domestic assault code and definition address many family members (too many to list here) so it is pretty broad but does include brothers, sisters, in-laws, etc.

Also, there are times that these things need to be corrected through training and working with other local agencies like Social Services that could have provided you transportation. I have personally sent my folks two and three counties away to provide transportation to juveniles and crime victims in order to make sure they were safely out of harm's way. Never gotten chewed for it yet and in fact, our administration prefers we take whatever action we deem necessary to accomplish this.

I always hate to hear of people having a bad encounter with Law Enforcement. I have just shy of twenty years in this now and am from the old school to an extent. I have a tendency to issue more warnings than tickets as I have found over the years that a well worded and curteous warning goes a long way towards correcting behavior. In fact, in the case of juveniles, I generally give them a choice of receiving a ticket or having mom or dad contact me within 24 hours in person to discuss what happened. Kids are just kids and make mistakes when starting out as a driver. Most of the time, I meet with mom and dad and the problem has been taken care of without writing a ticket and driving parents' insurance through the roof.

Again, most of the problems I see can be corrected through training. I train with my group at least two days a month on things like use of force, cultural diversity, professionalism, legal issues, firearms, and tactics. While it won't cure everything, education can accomplish a great deal. And I am not alone. The other three supervisors do the same. Our agency is state accreditted. That is an undertaking in itself because you are proving through your actions that you are performing to state mandated professionalism standards.

Again, I am sorry to hear of your bad experience and hope that any future encounters you have will be positive and professional. Kudos to all too for great discussion.

 

Powerstroke72, given what I've read I think I'd like you, and we would get along fine. I hope you haven't taken offence, but with my experiances I get a little grumpy about the police. I hope you do well, keep at it awhile, and are able to influence those around you.

Thank you for your high standards, but your administrators that weed out these bad apples must rely on you to tell them what's going on, just as you rely on your people to tell you what's going on.
Yes but the factory worker doesn't have the power of life and death over others, and the power of the state behind them. We must hold police to a much higher standard, because they have so much more power.
I understand the officers that made the intial stop, didn't have their weapons drawn because of some rule, even though they knew who this guy was. This is just another rule that hurts both of us, it makes your job more dangerous, and makes officers more paranoid making incidents that hurt the innocent more likely.
No disagreement here, this is why I am typing right now, I am just one man doing what I can. Maybe just maybe, someone reading this may be compeld to get involved.
I like this attitude and am sure many will agree with me there. You are a peace officer, and I thank you for that.
This should change, maybe more of the best amoung us will join the force. I would rather there were 2 well paid great officers then 3 OK ones.
In my experiance this complaint process doesn't really exist, at least here. I'll tell a short story;

When I was 22 a deputy decided to take a special intrest in my girl. He would pull me over every time on the way to her place, then everytime he saw me. Each time comming up with some ticket. The last time I "let" him stop me he told me if I went there again he would arrest me put me in his car, drive to a remote location and let me escape and kill me. This Ahole was dead serious. I spent the next two days trying to get ahold of someone in the department or in a position of oversite to try and help me. Just about everyone told me the same thing, that I was making it up to get out of the tickets he gave me. Until I finally talked to a detective that listend, then told me I was screwed, and gave some examples of what had happend to others.

That evening I bought my first gun, in the next few days I sold that truck so he wouldn't recognize me, broke up with the girl,(she was hot) and moved.

 

cmpd1781, I don't think we would get along, and I think your one of the "bad apples"
Unqualified? I'm a citizen that has had to deal with guys like you, at great loss to myself. If you don't think I have the right to criticize, then you are way gone to the dark side.

Oh don't get me started on contravention of the constitution, the moderators would shut this down quick.

 

First, I am generally not offended by much. Almost twenty years in this business has helped me to grow a rather thick skin. I do take offense at being stereotyped much as a citizen would take offense to and scream about profiling or stereotypes. We're past that now I think.

I pride myself on setting and adhering to very high standards and expect no less of the people that work under me. I also believe in leading by example and as such, I set the example and fully expect it to be followed. The administration does receive input from all supervisors and they take action when there is violation of policy. Thankfully, we have an excellent adminstration and they are very receptive.

While you are correct about the powers of police and lack thereof with the factory worker (note to all factory workers - just an example. I used to be one myself - nothing wrong with it), the citizen has the responsibility to abide by the laws of the country, state, county, and/or city or town. When these laws are violated, regardless of the status offense, the police have a duty to respond and act according to law. That said, there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Basically meaning that in areas of the law where discretion is allowed, the officer should look at the totality of the circumstances and act accordingly. If the system operated under the letter of the law, there would be no such thing as warnings, only tickets and arrests.

I have neither heard nor read anything about the officers in Oakland and their actions on that day. I would in no way try to judge their efforts or actions because I wasn't there. That said, if this is their policy or rule they were following, it would seem to contradict the most basic principles of officer survival taught in the academy. Again, without knowing all of the circumstances, I would in no way try to second guess their actions. My most heartfelt condolences go out to their families and the Oakland PD.

Firing off letters to legislators is the only way to change any laws and the more, the better. Legislators aren't going to listen to just one person's complaint. It needs to be a voice of many in order to get their attention. The more pressure they get from their constituents, the more likely they are to try to introduce change or run the risk of not being re-elected.

My team and I, as I said, do tend to focus more on the criminal investigative side of things and thank you for your comment on this. I look at the bigger picture and give higher priority to crimes against people and property. Traffic enforcement is also an important aspect of law enforcement and we practice it as well but we focus more on DUIs, racing, and so forth that could have an immediate and possibly devestating impact on the public.

The hours and the pay are two of the major hurdles when it comes to recruiting good officers. Here, we work twelve hour shifts and it's not unusual to get off work at 7 AM and have to be in court at 8:30 AM. Then you sit in court for one, two, maybe even six or eight hours. Then you're back at work that night for another twelve hour shift. No overtime pay, just comp. time.

Lastly, the complaint process didn't work for you. Rest assured, it does here. Complaints here get the immediate attention of supervisors and adminstrators. Our cars all have video cameras in them and the officers are guided by strict policy regarding operation. They are an excellent tool to protect both the officer and the public. They can be used to verify a complaint or exhonerate an officer. Either way, its a win-win situation for the public and the department because big brother is always riding with us.

I understand that some have had bad experiences with the police but this is not representative of law enforcement as a whole. In the academy and in our ongoing training, we teach new officers to treat people with dignity and respect. A lot of times, the first encounter a person has with the police may be the only one they ever have. Mistreating anyone by virtue of vested authority hurts both the public and law enforcement and is wrong. Hopefully, if nothing else, I maybe have been able to shed some light on the subject from the LE point of view.

 

Try to imagine my utter lack of concern for your uneducated opinion about my professionalism or lack thereof.......

No one questioned your right to criticize. I said you are unqualified to make the sweeping generalizations that you've been making since you started posting in this thread. Unless you've reached scientific conclusions with scientific surveys and data conducted across the board covering thousands of departments and hundreds of thousands of officers, then you are, again, unqualified.

Making a factual judgment based on proper criteria is one thing. Having the 'right' to bich about 'the Man' is another. No one questioned that. I bich about 'the Man' all the time.

I can't speak for the moderators, but the ones watching are probably chuckling just a little......

 

How do you stop them when they are going 115 or 120 in a 65? Do you hit 160 or 200 to catch up? Since they are now using cameras and radar together, why not equip the officer with the same, and mail the fine to the driver the same way the lights are monitored? If you are going from standstill and the person you pursue is doing 85, you might average 115 to catch this person. Most civilians see the police make a u turn in there rear view or put his lights on and move up behind them will panic briefly. Some will jamb there breaks or will swerve quickly into another lane to make room.


I drive across the causeway bridge. It is a twenty three mile toll bridge. The speed limit is 65mph. I have police vehicles from all parishes fly past me all of the time on this bridge. Some are in marked cars with plain clothes. Most of these officers are a spot in my rear view and a spot in front of me in a minute. They have no lights on and appear to be heading into town for shift change. I have yet to be able to get on this bridge with an officer and exit the bridge at the same time as the same officer. The causeway police sit at the crossovers shooting radar and never pull these officers over for speeding or tailgating, but they will stop the guy behind the officer.


I am not knocking you or the job that has to be done. There should not be a double standard between police and civilians. There used to be a time when you could joke with a policeman or have a civil conversation while they were in uniform but not anymore. Most have a presence of snobbery and disdain towards the civilian speaking to them unless it's a hot chick.

The national guard has been here since Katrina. They patrol and show a strong presence in the bad neighborhoods. They wanted to remove them a couple of months ago. The people in those areas fought to have them remain. They said that these soldiers were the best enforcement they had ever had and did not want to return to what it was. They were friendly and enforced the law. They even knew residents by there names,not 'cause of 911 calls,it was 'cause they walked the streets.

 

That kind of speed is rare, but common sense would have to come into play (I doubt most police cars could reach that speed)......Based on traffic and road conditions, is it worth it? Do you call it ahead and have a mobile unit ready, already moving, to intercept this car? You can't outrun a radio.

Also most cars, when they see the trooper and the radar, slow down.....That's just human nature..... A pursuit, of course, is a different animal altogether.

You're opening a whole new can of worms here. In NC, at least, the red light 'scameras' (a witty play on words on the talk radio circuit) generate a 'civil' ticket.......If you don't pay, you get a block put on stuff like re-registering your vehicle, etc......

And 'due process' has already been mentioned here..... I'm not a fan of the speeding or red light cameras either. Police officers are NOT tax/revenue collectors like the postings on this thread seem to think, but the cameras ARE revenue collectors. That's ALL they are---ways of generating revenue for whichever municipality is installing them. Public safety is the LAST concern here. And there's been bichin' about wanting to face your accuser (the cop) at the time of the offense. The camera tickets take days to reach your mailbox. Hell, some people don't even remember where the hell they drove the day before, let alone 7 or 10 days before. That's what you get, a letter in the mail stating that you did such-and-such, and shut up and pay the $50, or $75, or $100 or else.

Maybe not quite. 10-over will usually suffice. You don't have to be stationary to run radar either.....You can be moving with traffic.

OK...True, but civilians do this s--t when it's just a bright sunny day, the birds are chirping, all is good, and everyone, including the cops are just cruising along listening to the radio. But when they see the cop car.......Panic time......

Another can of worms. Police officers are required to obey the same traffic laws as any other citizen. Obviously some don't. Some break them repeatedly and severely. Some even get ticketed for the offenses.

I'll not go into any detail on a recent incident with my own department....That could take up an entire thread......Let's just say an officer on-duty decided it would be a good idea to back up an officer on a traffic stop (non-emergency) by driving over 90mph in a 45mph zone---and a 20-year old girl is dead. Four others, including the officer, were seriously injured.

I don't do that crap. And there's this wonderful thing called a cruise control which helps one maintain a safe, legal, and constant speed on the road......I'm a big believer in it. You don't really waste time in your day by making complete stops at stop signs, and not trying to beat yellow lights at intersections either. You'll get home just as quick doing things safely and legally.

Another can of worms. NOPD could almost write their own book. Anyone in law enforcement, or anyone who lives down that way, could likely recite the long-term problems with that police department.....It's a sad saga.

 

There comes a point where no matter how articulate, how precisely, how intelligent one side tries to explain the how’s and wherefores it is really all in vain. The phrase urinating into the wind comes to mind.

There will always be that segment of society that refuses to us their brain to reason and comprehend an intelligent explanation of what somebody out of what is only a honest desire to help them understand the obvious.

It has not been denied that there are "bad apples" in Law Enforcement. It was readily admitted. Just as their "bad apples" in every segment of society. It was also explained how for the most part they are not tolerated and along with L.E. internal process working hand in glove with existing law they can be and are sorted out.

To even begin to suggest that the number of bad comes anywhere close to the good is ludicrous beyond description and reflects on the mentality of the poster.

My hope is that many folks that have read these pages perhaps through curiosity or entertainment to begin with came away instead with a better understanding of their public servants that they pay to stand in between them and the lawlessness and chaos that is only a hairbreadth away.

I have found it somewhat surprising and encouraging to see the many positive and supportive postings this thread generated. I found them to be most hearting. My humble thanks. Without knowing it you have supported individual men and women in ways you may not understand.

Law Enforcement is so diverse the communities and localities are separated by distance local custom, population, tax base and so many other variables as to make ones head spin. Not to speak of the differing levels of Federal, State, County, Parrish, municipality. Often these levels overlap. Most if not all law enforcement at all levels are severely limited by financial resources.

Allot of agencies would like to become more involved in the Community Policing aspect. We all recognize the benefits. Though retired now I used to make it habit when patrolling small satellite communities to something like:

A typical communication interchange would go something like the following on the unit radio: 213 to Central….213? 213 Central 10/50 Mama Sohie’s Shaniko Junction,. Hold 10/75’s. Central to 213 Copy 10/50 Sohies Shaniko Junction and hold 10/75’s.

Simple English was I was stopping for awhile at Sophies for lunch and post pone radio officer safety checks for now. My purpose you ask, to stop at the local mom & pop store, combination gas station, and maybe post office and buy a candy bar and ask the proprietor how it was going? Maybe buy a pop and a pre-made sandwich and just chat for awhile.

Because it’s like taking the pulse of the patient. You hear plenty. But you are also are integrating yourself into the that little community. The benefits can be both useful as tool in my business and as well as psychiatrist couch for myself. Sure I could bring a fresh sack lunch, and remain just another anonymous uniform, badge and gun slowly cruising their dirt streets. Isolated in my cruiser.

I suspect this very thing is going on multiplied all over the country. Community policing before the word was invented. To the folks that complain they wished they could just stop and chat with their local LE, those are situations that an officer can take upon himself to let it happen in certain situations.

But the sad truth is with limited officers, covering more area, with less funding, and some senseless state, county or other political popular enforcement mandates. It is impossible for them to get out of their car and into the community. It’s all they can do to rush from call to call and stay even on reports. Often calls might be stack by priority. When is this officer to find the time to integrate into the community on duty?

This is a reality of police work in many large concentrated population areas. It was often called traveling Mach 5, with your hair on fire. It would get to be when you did collapse in bed after a ten or twelve hour shift you still could see the reflection of your red and blues flashing in your brain. Bouncing “Hot Call” to hot call.

Damn how I hated working night shift on full moons. Now you talk about “idiots”. For the majority of law enforcement it all comes with the badge. You don’t really hear them whine or complain. The burn out rate is high. The divorce rate runs higher than most other professions. Police officers and their families have to sacrifice so much of their personal lives to uphold the oath they swore to. To most of us….that oath is sacred. We don’t want the publics praise……but we dearly need and do desire your support. With out it our line can’t hold out against the dark side for very long. Over dramatic….maybe….but we aren’t separate you and us…we are you …..we are your personal guard.

To the following posters whose insistence (even after reading efforts by those in the know to set the record straight) on painting the majority of Law enforcement with the same brush... I honestly feel disdain for you.....the phrase "I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire" comes to mind. But sadly for all the rest of you ....it's just pity.

But you know what the real "kicker" to all this is.....not a one of us wouldn't be there as quick as we could....with all our training and resources made available to us....to protect or help you or yours as best we could to the best of our ability...no matter what you think. That's up to and including putting our life on the line for you.

Believe me it's done every minute ...every day and night....somewhere in this country. Chew on that for awhile when your over whelming desire of joining in on “The Drive By Whining” on the INTERNET comes to mind. May God bless us all. And have mercy on all the rest.

 

Steve and Clay - excellent posts. The only thing I'll add is what I've said before. Police Officers don't like to be stereotyped any more than the ordinary citizen that complains about profiling or stereotyping. To lump us all together in the "guilt by association" mindset is unfair to say the least. That equates to LE having the position that just because Buford beat the crap out of Lucinda, everybody in the trailer park is a toad and a wife beater.

I think a lot of negative comments about LE in general are borne out of ignorance. It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and spew forth all of the things one would do if they were a police officer but in reality, comments like that have no merit. I've heard it all.

First today - The officers you are speaking of, if not responding to an emergency with emergency equipment activated, have no business operating their cruisers as you have described. I neither condone nor do I tolerate this and as I've already said, I have disciplined two officers for this very thing. Does it happen? Yes it does and it's unfortunate. Get the license number and call in a complaint or better yet, go in person to file the complaint. You will get far more done by addressing this in the proper venue.

As you can tell by the responses from my friends above, our feelings are just as strong as all of yours. None of us are here to pick any fights, however, don't expect us to take a brow-beating lying down. Ain't gonna happen. Peace.

 

I will agree with all 3 of you. If you met me we would be the best of friends. I am sorry to say, judgements are made. When someone has been ticketed with a traffic fine and sees LE do the same violation it creates major tension. I drive 8 to 12 hours a day also. My chances of an infraction are increased greatly. I do not know if you saw my post on dawg the bounty hunter, but I have been more than a ride along and have experienced plenty of preferential treatment by being so. I also have great friends from that job because the officers dropped there guard briefly to be able to be related to as human. I have had offers from many sectors to join LE, but have passed the offers. You do not make enough for the potential threat that is out there.

As I said, traffic is my only gripe, just remember that civilians are judging and making notes, just as you. People are hesitant to complain out of fear of retaliation. The police are the biggest gang they know. I have always had respect and fear of law enforcement. I have had good and some bad personal experiences with the law, but to this day I have never been arrested and always able to look my father in the eye with respect. This has been a great debate and I do see a little different than before. root beer only.

 

We don't want anything to do with you unless you're a hot chick.....

(refer to your previous post, #55)

Which is why I don't mind taking the time to address your points. I don't mind criticism, as long as it's reasoned criticism. It's how you articulated the criticism. We're not 'God'. Personally, I didn't take any offense at the stuff you brought up. Traffic is a huge liability for all involved. We do a LOT more driver's training nowadays....A LOT more.....and it's wrapped around the 'SMITH' system of driving and situational awareness. That and practicing on the driving pad not to knock over poor traffic cones while doing high and low speed maneuvers..... Numbers don't lie. Don't hold me too tight to the numbers, but in my Department at least, our collisions are way down.....However they worked the numbers (per million miles or something).....We're like 6.....Used to be about 10........Again, I'll have to double check, but the rate for the civilian world is a LOT higher. Hard to believe since we're not just driving from point A to point B....We're also on the radio, looking at calls on the computer, trying to pay attention to our surroundings more than the average person......changing the radio station, drinking coffee...(oops! That's me....Sorry.....)

A car is every bit a weapon as a firearm. It's just maybe not quite as personal.