You did not read where I ran the taxes out to a years worth.

6.7 billion in social security and medicare.
8 billion a year in federal income tax.

So the latest numbers I have heard are 15 billion for all three companies.

Ford is paying 14.7 billion a year in payroll taxes alone.

This makes more sense than most of the banking bailout has done.

And actually the infrastructure work being talked about makes even more sense for helping the regular people.
That will put money in peoples pockets at the local level faster than anything else I have heard so far.

 

Remember that many if not most large companies are owned by investors. If you had a lot of money invested in a company (which you didn't work for or otherwise care about), would you want to see that investment sitting in cash being eaten away by inflation?

The economists have no idea what they are talking about. They just spout things like "new economy" and "stability" and everyone believes them. Why have any cash when the future is full of profit and growth...?

The pressure for short-term profits has been a big problem for a long time, and that mentality is a big part of what got us into this mess. Despite all their obvious problems and mismanagement, blaming the big three is a little hard -- they just did what everyone else did...

I don't claim to know what the government should do, but I do know that after this is all over, reversing much of the deregulation of the last 20-30 years would be a good start.

 

Canada did have a huge infrastructure plan (hey, $30 billion is a lot of money for canada) That was before the government was shut down. Some of it will probably be in a budget in late january (unless the opposition shoots it down).

It seems like a good enough way to keep things moving.

 

I have only one small thing to say here.
The federal budget went red and stayed there since the Vietnam War.
Every year since it went red, the debt has not only stayed, it also increased.

Why are we in this problem?

Because the companies and people started following the example out leaders have been setting for almost 50 years.
Where did all this creative financing come from, you only have to look to Washinton DC for that answer.

Can the govenment fix it?
Not likely, they created it.

Ford needs 10 billion, the federal govenment needs 12 trillion which is 1200 times more money.

I just got an email about how much is a billion.
One billion seconds ago it was 1959.
One billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.
One billion hours ago was the Stone Age.
One billion days ago nothing walked the earth on two feet.

Looking at this timeline, the government has been spending in the red 12,000 dollars a second since 1959 to get to where they are now.

What does the govenrnment need to do to fix this?
Set a financially responsible example for the people to follow, not one of reckless spending like they have been for the last 50 years.

After looking at this and thinking for a minute, where does anyone in the government think that they can say anything about any of the big three or any other company about bad money management?

If any of them started operating like the government does when they did, they would have been gone in 1965.

 

Thats something that I still have a hard time comprehending. Where is all that money coming from? Canada has been paying down its national dept for about 15 years now. Although we may be going back into dept in the next few years because of that planned spending

Our national dept started to ballon in the 1970s when social spending got out of control, but we turned it around eventially. Granted, we pay more tax now, but at least we know the national finaces are at least sustainable.

 

I read the whole thing I just have a hard time calling payroll tax a buisness expense.
Labor is a buisness expense but the individual laborer pays the income tax so I don't consider it a Ford-payed tax. I know Ford provided the job but it just doesn't jive with me. It will HURT but if we let capitalism work those jobs will be replaced, I REPEAT: it will HURT!

15 Billion dollars is not going to make a significant amount of difference to any kind of future to the big three. That's like throwing an extra $800 dollars payment on a mortgage that's a year over-due.
We just flushed that money down the toilet.

Some kind of bail-out is going to occur because one side of congress is beholden to big buisness and the other side is beholden to organized labor. They BOTH want the bail-out so it's a done deal.
The only hold-up is the amount the tax payers will except before they are are going to fire them over. They told us 38 Billion so when they drop it to 15 Billion were getting a "DEAL". The long-term, smart politicians are the ones who have been independent enough from these two groups to publically fight it. So 2, 4, or 6 years from now when we look back on the wasted money they can say "I was smart enough to fight that 'bridge to nowhere', they'll come out smelling like a rose at relection time.
Obviously 15 Billion isn't goin to do it because they already say it's a "bridge" loan so we can expect more BILLION $$$$$ hand-outs in the future.

We need some tough love, let them crash and burn and if they are good, smart, resoursefull enough they can pull a Phoenix and rise from the ashes.
This whole country and it's opinions are getting WAY too SOCIALIST for me. If the government had took a more hands-off approach decades ago we wouldn't be where we are now.

As soon as the populace as a whole realizes they can vote themselves a raise, capitalism is DEAD.
Maybe that has happenned and we just need to admit it!

 

My best answer to that question is futures trading.

In the future the population will grow, so tax revenue will increase, so we can spend more money now.
The money we are spending now will be paid back by our great great grand children.

Makes a lot of sense don't it.



How can you consider labor expense anything other than a business expense?
No employees = no business
Yes most of the income tax comes out of the employees check, but the company is writing that check so it is a business expense.
Notice I said most of the tax, the company is paying 1/2 the social security, 1/2 the medicare, all of the workers compensation tax and all of the unemployment tax.
Plus if you are lucky enough to have health insurance through the company, they are also paying a portion of that out of the companies pockets.
Labor is the biggest expense a company has, and it is where the government gets the largest portion of the companies money.

Several years ago I had 8 employees.
I know exactly how big the checks I was writing to the government were for only 8 employees.
Yes part of the money was payroll deductions, but a lot of it also came out of the business on behalf of the employee.
In 2000 if I paid a guy 10 dollars an hour, my break even point was 15 dollars an hour for that employee.
Pay that guy 20 dollars an hour, the break even point went to 30 dollars an hour.

Everything you pay the government and insurance companies is based on the gross amounts, not the net amounts.

 

I said labor IS a buisness expense I just don't think giving Ford "credit" for paying the taxes is correct.
Most of those people are going to have a job anyway if they didn't work for Ford. I know, I know it may not be as good of a job and that would TOTALLY suck for the employees who loose that job and some of them would go on unemployment instead of going to a new job. The worse the economy gets the more of them will be on gov't assistance and the less money will be available for that purpose. We're in a downward spiral we need a REAL fix for. I don't think throwing away Billions of non-existant dollars in every direction is going to fix anything.

My point is I don't think we should be giving corporate welfare in the Billions to any industry simply so they will still be paying taxes. That's false economy for the country.
Trickle-up or in these days FLUSH-UP economy is only eliminating the middle class wealth.
Just like the depression: the wealthy will be OK and maybe even get richer, the poor and middle class are going to suffer. I'm not anti weathly people, I wish I was one of them, but they will survive and I don't want to go down by giving my money to them.

These bail-outs are a band-aid, the scab is going to stick to it and then were going to have to rip it off later. Man it's going to hurt!

You're right, even IF all of this works (which I SERIOUSLY DOUBT) we are going to be paying for it FOREVER. It's just like charging your credit card over max. and then making half of the minimum payment. How long can we do that for?

At some point all of this is going to come to a head. I think NOW would be a better time than LATER before we dig a bigger hole to fall into.

 

Who you give credit for the payroll taxes don't make much difference.
If they work for Ford, the money came out of their account.

Above in about 20 minutes of looking for subsidiaries I found 13.
So Ford goes down, 350,000 people move from paying taxes to drawing unemployment.
The other 13 companies also shut down, and all of their employees which I have no idea how many their are also move from paying taxes to drawing unemployment.
Next thing is other companies that provide parts and services to Ford also take a nose dive and start laying off people adding them to the unemployment lines.
Tool suppliers, utility companies, trucking companies, vending companies, paint suppliers, steel suppliers, plastic suppliers, wire suppliers and the list goes on and on.
Next you start adding all the companies that provide parts and services to the companies that provided parts and services to Ford.
Ever watch dominos fall?
One takes down two which takes down four which takes down eight?

We are on a very slippery slope on the downhill side, and it is a long way to the bottom.
When I get in a place like that I try to keep my decent under control, which is about how I classify the bailout loans.
Not giving the loans to the big three, might as well head her straight down and nail the throttle cause we are going to the bottom and it's going to be a nasty crash when we get there.

As for money, you might as well give it to someone, it won't do them any more good than it will you.
That is the big difference between what a depression now would be compared to the last one.
Last time around the US was on the gold standard.
If you had a dollar, you had something.
Today, no gold standard, money is just paper that will have no value.
A roll of toilet paper will have more value that a roll of hundred dollar bills.
At least the roll of toilet paper is good for something.
Will the rich do any better? The ones that have gold in their own vault will do better.
The ones that have paper money are going to be in the same boat the rest of us are in and in fact may be worse off.

I think we have been on a bad path for many years.
I don't agree with many of the decisions made in Washington.

But in the end it don't make any difference what I think, I am just some dumb hillbilly from WV that don't know nuthin.
But I do know the hills and the hill folk ways from years gone by.
Yes I still remember the houses with no running water, the outhouse, the spring house and no phone or electricity.
We managed then, we can do it again.

 

Payroll tax is something different than the income tax that employees pay.

It is the employers share of Medicare (1.45%), Social Security
(6.2%), and unemployment taxes (a variable percentage based on experience).

This is money that the government gets from a business over and above employee wages and withholding. These are business expenses that the employees never see and don't contribute toward.

 

See the news yet? the bailout plan collapsed.

reportonbusiness.com: GM considers bankruptcy as bailout talks collapse

courtesy of the globe and mail newspaper (canada)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...5cpDy2ISlXZamA

courtesy of google news

 

I realize there is a family connected to every one of those jobs. EVERY ONE has a LIFE attatched to it.
The problem is we COULD change A LOT of things and FIX this, it will not be even remotely humane or easy.

We need to quit sending funds to other countries almost all of them hate US and some of them want to KILL US. Let charity do charity work, not the U.S. gov't.

We need to get all of our troops home, I'm pro-war but enough is enough. WE can't afford it anymore.
By the way Iraq and their worthless neighbor we helped out 20 years ago owe US about a Trillion barrels of oil and it's time to collect. WE get half the production until it's paid for.
WE don't care if you LIKE US anymore. We have all the BIG sticks and they're pretty damn impressive we just haven't had the ***** to use them right YET. We have an air-superiority jet that is 20 YEARS ahead of anything any of you can build if you started trying RIGHT NOW. If you're OUR friend GREAT let's help each other out, mutually beneficial only.
If you don't like US fine, leave US alone. WE repay terror ten-fold.

Throw ALL of the illegal aliens out, they are draining our resourses at an alarming rate. WE can't afford to be idiots anymore plus WE have people who need those jobs now.
One group of them are all of the criminals sitting on their worthless butts in prison costing US money, time they got a job. Pickin' beans sound good to me. You leave the bean patch Harlan gonna pop a .30 caliber cap in yo' @$$.
WOW! Food production costs just dropped a lot, all we need is four gaurds that can shoot straight armed with hunting rifles and a perimiter and you have 100 guys workin' their thievin' butts off, for free.
Now they won't want to go BACK to prision so maybe they'll be productive when we set them free and they now know how to work!

Next WE could cut the bloated government down to size. Let's make a list of all of the gov't agencies divide them up in some kind of rational manner and have a vote on who gets eliminated or downsized.

BUY AMERICAN!
Say you go to Wal-Mart to get some cook-ware. You can get 30 Chinese pots-and-pans for what 10 U.S. made pots-and-pans would cost. Do you really NEED 30 or would 10 actually get the job done in a more efficient manner?
Now you just paid for a U.S. worker to keep his job plus you don't have all of that Chinese crap you don't use cluttering up your house.
AND that worker who made that pan could probably be taught to make a plethora of military wares incase all of my other changes get US into WWIII.

If you can't tell I don't care about bleeding-heart, feel good, global warming blah, blah, blah bull crap anymore. The fixes are obvious they just take HARD times and the resolve to do what needs to be done.

I wish I could bring back the WWII generation, those men AND women knew how to get things DONE!

 

Wouldnt that be a nice plan. I always said they need to downsize the goverment at least enough to elect one every day Joe and his job would be nothin more than making common since decisions. You available Dodge? This forum could be your secret cabinet.

 

All I am saying is after spending years driving trucks delivering from big companies to big companies I have seen how dependant one company is on other totally non related but intergral companies.
IBP cranked out hundereds of loads of beef every day and sold it to meat houses all over the country.
The trucking company I worked for was not affiliated with them in any way other than providing transportation for their product.
We ahd a window of about 4 hours to deliver our loads to say NYC meat houses.
If we were late, they ran out of meat to deliver to the stores and resturants.
Non of the companies were anything more than customers, service providers or suppliers to any of the others, but they were all dependant on each other.
If any of the chain links snapped, it did have a direct effect on all of the rest of them.

After running a construction company after my driving years, I saw what the tax bite was on a small 9 person company and can only imagine what it would be on a company the size of any of the big three.

If GM closes down, how many people at DuPont loose their jobs from the drop in sales by the amount of paint sold to GM?
What about the guys at the tire factory that makes tires for the GM plants?
What about the guys at the local GM dealership?
How many truck drivers are put out of work and how many trucking companies go under?
What effect does that have on Peterbuilt?
What effect does that have on the truck tire companies?
How much effect on truck stops?

Those are only a small list of people that have little or nothing to do with GM that will be affected.

World War II people in todays business world would be totally lost.
Nothing in that era was so interconnected and dependant on places so far away.
Huge warehouses have been replaced by a much faster and more reliable transportation industry.
The stockpile of materials has been reduced from months to weeks to days or hours.


Let's get rid of the big three.
Let's get rid of what few big manufacturing industries we have left in the USA and depend on a foriegn country for all of our transportation.
I like that plan so much, that I bet that is the route the government takes.

Probably should send Boeing and Lockhead over there while we are at it.


Wait... what was that about 10 billion we gave Pakistan?
Maybe that should have divided that among the big three instead of giving it to Pakistan.

 

That's why we need to get rid of a BUNCH of the gov't and the beuracratic bull crap that goes with it.
We can't afford all this politically correct, touchy-feely COMPLICATED system ANYMORE. We need to simplify it, quit giving hand-outs and get tough.
Unfortunately NONE of this is GOING to change until there is absolutely no other way. By then we'll be totally at the end of the rope. If we had the ***** to make the necessary changes now we could survive.

It doesn't really matter that all of this economy is all interdependent because it's all going down and will have to come back.

The basic thing is that there are not enough CUSTOMERS to support the big three. It's as simple as that, we can keep throwing money at them to keep them afloat but they have been loosing money for how long?
I would suggest that throwing good money after bad at a loosing proposition is financialy stupid.
It really sucks but those jobs are GONE. We can pretend they are not but they ARE. So whatever happens at DuPont or Johnson Controls etc. IS going to happen. We can flush money down the toilet or just except it.
We can give them more money to produce cars that won't sell or even better: sell at a loss, that makes sense.
Or we can keep supporting their overly-large infrastructure that they won't need for the forseeable future too but that will get us nowhere also.
The mfgs. and suppliers are ALL going to be a shodow of them formal selves no matter what we do.