dove performance took all the original prototype and production tooling from ford after the NASCAR plan got canned.... i wonder how much to get some aluminum repos on these babies would cost... imagine those heads on a built aluminum 427 block.... and as a side question, you think the cross bolt bottom end is probably the best method? (i.e. strongest) just a fun little discussion

 

Great discussion to start. Actually, NASCAR finally approved Ford to run the SOHC but required a 1lb per cubic inch weight penalty if they ran it in the Fairlane.
Ford declined, sticking withthe Tunnelport 427. They did however continue building SOHC's well up into 1970, selling them through their parts department for a little over $2000, your choice, 4V or 8V, no difference in price.
I talked to Danny Ongais and Mickey Thompson in 1969 when they won EVERY AA/FC event they entered runnin SOHC power in the "Mickey Thompson Mach 1". The bottom end of the tired old FE was not up to the HP the SOHC could produce. Ongais told me they broke a motor on every run and then showed me the inside of the trailer and what appeared to be about 16 Cammer's ready to go!!!!
The Cammer made lots more HP than the Chrysler Hemi but what too complicated to rebuild between rounds and ended up going the way of the propeller airplane.

David

 

What all is different about the SOHC 427 vs. a Side-oiler or Top-oiler? Is the block the same? I guess not, since there would be a hole where the cam went, no?

 

ANY FE BLOCK can be turned into a CAMMER (SOHC) FE. The 427 was most likely chosen because of the crossbolted mains. The thing that makes the cammer what it is is the heads, intake, and timing set up. As stated before the cammer was a bear to rebuild between rounds, but it would still be great to have an old cammer in the Truck. No one would know what the heck it was and no one would believe it was an acctual production engine. Although it was only produced and sold as an over the counter item. This is some limited info I know on the Cammer.

As for the side question: I feel the "true" 4 bolt main is probably a smidgen stronger than the cross bolted set up. It is also alot easier to align if you need a new set of main caps. The latter may be the # 1 reason the Big three incorperated it into their performance blocks. That is my opinion.


scotty

 

SOHC Valves will fit in a 390 bore there Scotty? They are on more of an angle so it is possible. I just never heard wether it could be done.

 

Cammer blocks are a little different than a typical 427 side-oiler, there is an extra oil drainback hole for the heads on the rear of each cylinder bank.

I like the crossbolt scheme 'cause you get support in two different planes. The crossbolts help the caps from moving sideways.

Personally I think it could have been a lot stronger if the block skirts were thicker or reinforced.

Barry

 

I disagree.

A splayed 4 bolt main will be stronger and outperfrom a cross-bolted main anyday.

Just think, all the attention in directed in the same direction on a splayed 4 bolt main, whereas the cross-bolted one will have 3. ONe towards the block and the other two directed away and to the sides.

And then you have the issue of cobrajet blocks. They weren't cross-bolted and performed right alongside 427 engines.

If you really want a cross-bolted block you can get retro-fit kits from Dove. But why bother? There are plenty of examples within dirt track engines turning 8,000 RPM with stock blocks.

Josh

 

The purpose of the cross bolts were to prevent "cap walking" which happens at very high RPMs from the rotation of the crank under pressure. The cross bolts stopped this very well. As far as massive amounts of power at not so high rpms I think the 4 bolt caps will hold the crank in place better. I think they have 2 different purposes so it depends on the application. As far as bottom end strength I don't think many blocks have much on the FE.

 

I am not sure if the valving will work in a 390. I should have stated they will bolt up.

If I remeber right the SOHC ran the Tunnel port sized valving. 2.25/1.73 intake & exhuast respctively. So with a little notching it MAY be possible to make it work. BUT most cames have a moment that both intake and exhuast valves are open. In order to have them at an angle tight enough to acctuallt fit both valves in the hole with out notching, I would think that the two valves would collide some where. I have no real dealings with the cammer and this is all speculation. But, in the right situations anything COULD happen.

Hope this helps clear thing up.

Scotty

 

On the side question......crossbolts are best. The reason some block designs have to settle for splayed bolts is because the block doesn't have a skirt like the FE. BBB is right when he explains that you get strength in two planes. The two big bolts have more than enough strength to hold the pressure. But what happens when the cylinders fire is that the caps are hanging down under the saddles and flexing front to back. Every time the cylinders fire, the caps get pushed frontwards and backwards in addition to just down. The crossbolts in a deep skirted block can resist this fore-and-aft action. DF

 

 

There is so much misinformation and questions in this thread that I had to join just to clear it up.....Even if the last post was 4 years ago! If we as ford enthusiasts can't get our facts straight, what are others to make of it if they have an interest??

First; The 427 Ford Hi-Riser was mopping up NASCAR in 1963. Then Chrystler came out with the 426 race HEMI. The Hi-Riser did OK on short tracks where it's slightly "dog legged" runners offered a good midrange torque, but the Hi-Riser could not keep up on the bigger tracks with long straights. FORD threw together the cammer, hence the name the ninety day wonder. Chrystler knew the writing was on the wall and designed a 4 valve per cylinder DOHC 426 HEMI. There are stories that one or two of these engines were produced, but no engine or picture has surfaced. The Blue Prints have surfaced and do exist. In 1964, you could buy a new mustang for $4,000. The 426 race HEMI was a hand built tool room piece that cost Crystler $4,000 a unit to build. (check your history, the production street 426 Hemi wasn't available until 1966) It was costing Ford, $11,000 a unit to build the Cammer. Before the Cammer got cleared to race for NASCAR, GM petitioned NASCAR that these were tool room pieces that were not production engines. Also, NASCAR had several notable deaths the previous year. The cars were to heavy, to little tire, with to much engine. NASCAR agreed. Prior to the new ruling you had to produce 500 engines to quallify. After the new ruling, 500 engines had to be sold to the public in cars. Hence the reason that Chrystler boycotted NASCAR in 1965. FORD ran the medium riser, and the Tunnel Port did not come out until 1967-68. I don't know how they got arround production engine with the tunnel port, as it never was a production option, but this rulling can also be seen in the 501 Boss 429 Mustangs sold in 1969 and the 493 they sold in 1970. The Cammer was intended to be sold in crates to the public at a loss in order to dominate NASCAR, but it never ran. There are storries that FORD shifted blocks arround to quallify for 500 engines, but nobody seems to have actual production numbers on them. They did not build any more engines, it took until 1970 to sell them to the public at $2,500 an engine, even if it was at a huge loss. Stop and think, you could buy a new mustang for $4,000 in 1964. Plus, with a possible 500 engines out there, an aftermarket was non existant. Holman/Moody bought up the remaining CAMMER inventories. The cammer was built in 1964, so it couldn't have been directly replaced by the tunnel port as the heads didn't exist yet.

The thread started with a post about Dove MFG aluminum blocks. Dove makes an aluminum block, Genesis makes an aluminum block, and the most expensive is the big bore Carol Shelby version that I own at $6,500 bare block. I own only the second Carol Shelby block drilled for cammer heads and the other is a smaller standard bore sleve block.

The cross bolt main design is the strongest as evidenced by the fact that I don't see any 4 bolt main or splayed main caps in the 8,000 horsepower world of top fuel!! I own a center oiler 427 Hi-Riser with cross bolt mains, I own a 427 side oiler orriginal iron cammer with cross bolt mains, and my Carol Shelby block has billet steel main caps with 6 bolt mains, two 1/2 inch studs up from the bottom, and two 7/16 bolts that are cross bolted per side. I presently also have two 1967 390 GT fast back mustangs, have owned about a dozen 390s', a 428 cobra jet, 427 low riser, 406 tri-power,and factory aluminum dry deck 427 Tunnel Ports.

I took one of my Cammer valve covers with me to the Spring Nationals and Don Prudhome and Connie Kalitta, both signed it as they both ran cammers in top fuel. Kalitta pulled me into his trailer and talked for over a half hour with me and gave me his personal email and office number on back of his standard buiseness card as he was looking for engine parts to redo one of his cammer slingshots for Garlits museum. Kalitta told me that FORD gave him an engine a week to destroy, but in 1969 FORD made him run the boss 429 and the best they could make the boss do was 450 HP less than the cammer and the Boss 9 weighed more as well.

An orriginal cammer block is a 427 side oiler with the cam bore in the normal location as it still has a stub cam that rides in the first two bearing saddles to connect the standard timing chain set to the six foot chain, further, a camer has a blank that goes into the middle saddle with a groove in the middle of the outside circumfrence that flows oil to the top end since there is no cam in that possition. The only real difference in an orriginal cammer block and the standard side oiler is that the cammer block has no machined lifter holes, although the casting material is still there to be bored out, and the block has extra material at the back of each cylinder bank on the low sides with a blind hole drilled to the bottom of the block for oil return. Some standard side oilers have this material and can be bored, some do not. The siae oilers that do not, or center oiler can be used if external lines are used to return the oil.

There are some rare thick walled 428 blocks that are essentually under bored 427 blocks that could be eyebroed enough to clearance the cammers valves, but 390, 406, and regular 428 cobrajet blocks cannot be eyebrowed enogh to clearance these valves, they don't have cross bolt mains except HP 390 & 406, and even if you could clearance you would have to run external oil return lines and the big question would be why do it??????

Since the 427 cammer was first to be made, the Tunnel Port ran the same valves as it did, not the other way arround.

The earliest prototype cammers had the sparkplugs entering at the bottom of the valve cover and had semi hemi combustion chambers, the valves were ofset like the latter boss 429 with slightly dog legged ports like the boss 429. These heads made 70 horsepower less than the cammer with traditional hemi layout. I have seen a set of these at a swap meet, so you need to know what you are looking at....looks like Ford forgot in 1969 what they learned 5 years ealier.

The first Cammers with plugs at the top of the valve covers can be spotted as there valve covers have only fins the whole length and not the FORD 427 logo in the oval in the middle. These were the lash cap rockered heads, and the other covers were on the latter adjustable rockers, although the rockers will interchange and the lash settup is stronger.

As a final note. I live in Ohio, and have been to Dove MFG. Jim has an orriginal FORD picture with a V-12 side oiler cammer with three 780 Hollies and a long oval airfilter and two 6 cylinder distributers. I wonder what happened to that monster????

I hope I helped educate some....I always enjoy talking FE.

 

That V12 cammer pic has been photoshopped if it's the one I'm thinking of. It's not real. Pretty cool pic tho....and was the forum logo on the old net54 "wild west" site. It's been discussed before there and shows up once in a while. Sometimes on ebay in someones auction also. So Jim might have been pulling your leg on that one??

Some interesting facts tho on the cammers even if the subject is 4 years old. Thanks for the write up. I enjoyed reading it.

G.

 

Fun reading!!

 

FFR428,

Jim thought it was real, it could be a fake, but he is talking of casting a V-12 Hi-Riser for his cobra and I told him if he does that I want a block also. He said he already measured and can put the V-12 in. The block and crank would be the hardest, lets see what he does.