[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-Jan-02 AT 08:44 AM (EST)]I am looking at buying a Class C RV built on an E-550 chassis in the next couple years (have a V10 based E-450 today)and trying to figure out if any HP/torque increases are coming to the V10. GM's 8.1 V8 currently leads with 340 horsepower and 455 lbs of torque verses the V10's 310/425.

Seems like the V10 may get the 3V enhancements the 5.4L is getting. Don't know how much or when. Seems like the 5.4L is getting:
3V -
VCT - variable cam timing
Dual spark plugs
IAFM - ?
ETC - electronic transmission control
Electronic returnless fuel system

Anybody have any info ?

 

>GM's 8.1 V8 currently leads with
>340 horsepower and 455 lbs of torque verses the V10's 310/425.


I too would like someo concrete info, if it exists.

But as for the Ford/GM HP debate. The V10 is a more powerful engine per liter of displacement. Plus it is a more efficient package, fuel use wise. Maybe if GM made that big engine within the same output ballpark as the V10, I'd give it a hat's off. But it hasn't. Of course an engine with 1.3 more liters of displacement will show higher numbers. But give the V10 what it's due.

Trq per ltr / HP per ltr
GM - 56.17 / GM - 42
V10 - 62.5 / V10 - 45.5

that is all.....

 

Monsta, while I agree that the V10 is a newer, higher output per liter engine....what really matters to most is output.

GM claims the biggest, most powerful gasoline engine in the motor home market:
- Designed for heavy-duty use
- Most fuel efficient gas engine available - Numerous enhancements make this 8.1 liter engine more fuel efficient than available 6.8 liter engines
- 200,000-mile life expectancy
- HP and torque at lower RPM

Take a look at this page: http://www.workhorsecc.com/rvs/vortec/8100.asp

Ford has a better engine that now needs some enhancements to improve fuel efficiency and boost output.

 

Well, OK I see...You are correct that there is no "replacement for displacement". Especially when dealing with 20,000# RV's. Let's hope Ford steps up.

 

The "graphs" at that site made me . Amazing what SCALE can do for a marketing campaign. Notice how the "road" from 8.5 mpg to 8.9 mpg is WAY longer than the "road" from 8.9 mpg to 9.1 mpg? Must be that new logarithmic information super-highway!
[ul]
[li]Durable? It's only been out a year now. How can you claim durability of an un-tested product?
[li]Designed for HD use. Are we to believe that Ford & Dodge did NOT design their engines for HD use?
[li]Most fuel efficient gas engine available? According to reports from the Chevy guys that are towing RVs with the 8.1L, their MPG is about the same as mine (when loaded). As always- some a little better, some a little worse.
[li]200,000 mile life expectancy. Anyone here NOT expect 200,000 miles from their engine?
[/ul]

I love this quote:
"Numerous enhancements make this 8.1 liter engine more fuel efficient than available 6.8 liter engines"

Numerous enhancements????

BTW, what's the Ford 2000 that they are comparing to their product?

 

"BTW, what's the Ford 2000 that they are comparing to their product?"

They are comparing the 8.1 with Allison 1000 5-speed auto to the Ford F-53 Class A chassis with the V10 and 4 speed auto.

While you can debate their claims, they are marketing statements that Ford has not made.

I would guess their mileage improvements are mainly because of the 5-speed transmission. Ford gets a 5 speed next year accross all SDs, while GM has a clear lead with the Allison, it is only certain of their highest GVWR models.

 

Thanks. Do you see anywhere if they say the trucks are running the same body? If not, then that alone could significantly alter the MPG comparison. We need more info for this claim to be validated.

I'll agree that the 8.1 will be a fine engine- I think we all love big cubes :-). But, considering the ~81 CID advantage, the GM 496 big-block really should make more than just 30 additional HP & 30 more ft-lbs of torque than our V10s. The fact that it is so big and still gets the same MPG as our engines IS something that's good.

Anyway, I don't see GM making these claims. In fact, it's kind of difficult to find info about the 8.1L on GM's websites. It's not listed anywhere on their powertrain site except the "Industrial" area. And you will never find a MPG claim posted by GM for their HD trucks. Instead, what I see is a chassis manufacturer making WOW-type marketing statements after they have (proudly claimed) made "numerous modifications" to a GM offering. Given the outcome, it seems to me that there isn't really much to brag about... unless it costs significantly less than the F-53.

 

My previous reply was pretty wimpy, I know. I just didn't feel like arguing and defending the V10 that day. I think a comparison between a 8.1L V8 and 6.8L V10 is retarded. It is an apples to oranges debate.

However, if the comparison if based solely on what each manufacturer produces to fill the big gas engine market, I would say that given total output, GM wins by numbers. But Ford wins on a proven track record.

Speaking srictly about peak numbers, NoMo is right. The GM should put out more power given it's displacement advantage. Kinda what I was talking about earlier.

My V10 WILL last at least 200K, easily.

My Excursion gets better MPG than any big block GM on the market today (in the same application ie heavyweight SUV).

that is all....


Oh, Mike you're not thinking of moving to the dark side for .6mpg improvement, are you?

 

Monsta, no won't go to the dark side

GM does not play in the large Class C market, Ford owns it, I just want to know what the plans are for the E-550 chassis and was hoping a power increase was coming to go along with that 5-speed we are getting. Numerous posts on various boards, have turned up no info on the V10's future.

In the class A market, Ford is getting killed. GM sold their P chassis to Workhorse a few years ago and Workhorse has done a lot of work to come out with a new chassis and update the P chassis while Ford seemingly has done nothing. Then add to that the more HP/torque of the 8.1 AND the 5 speed Allison tranny and you see why Ford is getting kicked. In the RV market, because of the higher revs of the V10, it tends to not be liked as much as the big displacement 8.1. The argument against the V10 is hard to fight....if it is some good, why doesn't Ford put out a higher HP/torque version so it beats GM ?

With the new E-550, Ford will increase in complete dominance in the 29'+ Class C market. The limit to the E-450 was really 32', the E-550 could go 36-37' easy.

 

> In the RV market, because of the higher revs of the V10, it
>tends to not be liked as much as the big displacement 8.1.
>The argument against the V10 is hard to fight....if it is
>some good, why doesn't Ford put out a higher HP/torque
>version so it beats GM ?
>

Too bad people don't understand the technology. Honestly, which engine is being worked harder- one designed for 6000 rpms running at 2500 or one designed for 5000 rpms running at 2000?

As for who make the "most" power, that is a never-ending game of leap-frog. From '97 (when their V10 was introduced) until '00, it was Ford. Now, it's GM. In another year (maybe two), it'll be Ford again. And in between that time, it'll be Dodge who has the highest numbers on paper.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-Jan-02 AT 11:20 PM (EST)]I've seen two tests of the 8.1 and the 6.8 in 1 ton dually's in the past year. Truck Trend and Popular Mechanics. Both articles showed very similar test results between the two.

Numbers can be deceiving. GM wrings thier motors out to produce peak hp and tq. The 6.8L produces 90% of torque at 1500 rpm. Compare curves!

 

Yeah, I saw that article too. The Ford V10 was slower than the Chevy 8.1 unloaded. When loaded, it was much closer. The Ford must make more low end torque.

Oh, by the way, the Ford was faster than the dodge 8.0 V10 both loaded and not.

 

I really tried to stay out of this and could not there is a reason ford owns the C class motor home class It is called the chevy 454 one of the worst engines ever. I know thats probaly going to draw fire but I got to say it because its true and the 8.1 liter is a bored and stroked version of the 454 none of the 454 s could make it past 120000 miles with out replacing the heads ask any one who has got and older motorhome with one in it, the heads always cracked in the area between the intake and exhaust valve the engine had heating problems more so in motor homes . the V10 on the other hand does the same amount of work in a smaller package .Its generally known around most machine shops engines over 460 ci does not have no longevity and in my opinion the 8.1 liter will be no exception ,while the V-10 should last at least 200k if its took care of and one more thing the allison transmission I drove a new chevy truck with that transmission and engine combo the transmission shifts like a greyhound bus(rough)

 

Anyone know where to find the power curve chart for the V10 ? Someone earlier mentioned the V10 makes 90% of torque at 1500 RPM but the Ford Fleet site says 90% at 2000 RPM

The 8.1 is just stroked, not bored, plus a bunch of other enhancements, I included the GM marketing fluff at the end of this post. Ford has a better engine but will alway have to fight if we don't have higher HP and torque ratings.

Ford owns the C market really becasue of the chassis more then the engine. GM only goes up to 12,500 GVWR and Ford did go up to 14,050 GVWR in the E-450 and now to 19,000 GVWR in the E-550.

The GM 8.1 chart can be found at http://irv2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=089094322&f=076097422&m=15930606 83&r=6153093593#6153093593

It shows the 8.1L engine puts out 405 ft/lbs or torque at 1900 rpms and the curve stays flat all the way out to 455 ft lbs of torque at 3200 rpms.

The 8.1 info from the Web:
The new GM 8.1-liter (496-cid) engine is based on the old 7.4-liter (454-cid) big-block engine design (same overall size), but it has been totally reworked. The new engine has a longer stroke with the same bore size, which results in a larger displacement.

A new firing order and internally balanced flywheel smooth the engine operation and reduce crankshaft stress. New cast-steel cylinder heads feature identical-dimension ports, for less torque variation, and new cast stainless-steel exhaust manifolds are said to eliminate many of the exhaust-leak and manifold-cracking problems of past engines.

Even-length runners in the new aluminum intake manifold create more even combustion and greater efficiency. A new coil-near-plug ignition system produces 50 percent more ignition energy, reduced emissions and improved idle quality. Engine compression has been increased from 8.9 to 9.1:1, yet regular-grade gasoline is still recommended and the engine's electronic knock control can make timing and other adjustments as necessary to eliminate pinging that may result from use of poor-quality fuel. A carefully tuned dual-exhaust system, complete with dual catalytic converters, not only provides exhaust efficiency, but also helps cut down on interior noise. The new engine is rated 340 hp at 4,200 rpm and 455 lb-ft of torque at 3,200 rpm.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-Jan-02 AT 01:40 AM (EST)]>Yeah, I saw that article too. The Ford V10 was slower than
>the Chevy 8.1 unloaded. When loaded, it was much closer. The
>Ford must make more low end torque.
>
>Oh, by the way, the Ford was faster than the dodge 8.0 V10
>both loaded and not.


I actually have the TRUCK TREND article right here.

The Ford had a slight advantage while EMPTY. Going up a grade with a load the 8.1 stuffed the 6.8 by 3 seconds. Torque curve smorck curve, we're getting stomped in the motor AND tranny departments right now.



NOMO, the vortec 454 had 290 HP while our last 460's were still at 240ish and the new V10's were at 265-275HP.


Michael G, your class C explanation was excellent. The 454 is a fine motor and the 8.1 will also be a fine version of the 454.

BTW, I own an '01 V10 automatic.