Injection pump timing
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Hagerstown, Md
hey man im gonna ask my snap-on guy about this to see if he knows anyone else that may be can work on it for ya to see if the timer is bad or not. the part number for it is the Snap-On MT480 correct?
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
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From: Mi'kma'ki
the timing meter is a MT480 (the lumy only type) yup.
the magnetic crank sensor is MT88A.--which could be my problem.id need to try a known working one with my meter to know for sure.otherwise,it could just a problem internally with the meter itself.
you can ask him,but he's not going to have a clue what your talking about.
he'll tell ya; error 404.part #'s not found lol.
the magnetic crank sensor is MT88A.--which could be my problem.id need to try a known working one with my meter to know for sure.otherwise,it could just a problem internally with the meter itself.
you can ask him,but he's not going to have a clue what your talking about.
he'll tell ya; error 404.part #'s not found lol.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
you bet.
a member of oil burners is currently helping me get my meter working.so soon i can share testing results! im so exited.
mostly im so dang curious to find out where the heck the timing is currently set.
be careful buying the old discontinued meters guys.if i had to do it over,i wouldn't frig with the old snap-on meters.to many dishonest people on ebay,and you can't find parts.
imho,its not worth the hassle.
unless of course they offer a money back policy for a few days.then you know the seller likely has a truly working meter to sell.
of course you can count out the low discount prices once you see that.
a member of oil burners is currently helping me get my meter working.so soon i can share testing results! im so exited.
mostly im so dang curious to find out where the heck the timing is currently set.
be careful buying the old discontinued meters guys.if i had to do it over,i wouldn't frig with the old snap-on meters.to many dishonest people on ebay,and you can't find parts.
imho,its not worth the hassle.
unless of course they offer a money back policy for a few days.then you know the seller likely has a truly working meter to sell.
of course you can count out the low discount prices once you see that.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
From: Hagerstown, Md
F250 my snap-on rep said that the guy he knew that worked on them unfortunately passed away back in the spring... sorry it took so long to get back to ya about it seein the thread back up on the 1st page again made me remember.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
uh oh.i hope it wasn't the same guy "icanfixall" @ OBN knew,or we're all in trouble!
that's ok roller,i pretty much knew my only hope was to find a guy to swap parts with.
lucky for me,i did do enough research to show just how rare scoring a lumy probe is,let alone 3! -this is why i didn't even frig with trying to get my $ back or anything.i should end up in good shape,and help a fellow idi'er so he can own a probe he;s been missing too.
thanks for checking into it just the same.
ya just never know.
that's ok roller,i pretty much knew my only hope was to find a guy to swap parts with.
lucky for me,i did do enough research to show just how rare scoring a lumy probe is,let alone 3! -this is why i didn't even frig with trying to get my $ back or anything.i should end up in good shape,and help a fellow idi'er so he can own a probe he;s been missing too.
thanks for checking into it just the same.
ya just never know.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
a few guys are getting some fresh diesel parts around here i noticed.
them injectors and ip's should really help bring them classic diesels back to life.however you'll need them timed properly to see their true value.
most reading this thread will be attempting to time by ear.just remember a little goes a long way.you can always try advancing a little more after a test run.
be careful you don't melt them glow plugs boys.good luck!!!
when your new ip's and injectors are in.........better yet,why not read up now,so you have an idea on what to do.start on page one and read through.enjoy.
make them IDI's turn some tires once again.
........uh,um.i meant bring back them long lost MPG's.
please read the first caution in red again here before following the advice below.you have been warned...twice now lol.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/3...ml#post9617020
ok.if you know the risks involved now,and are ready to time by ear.this may help get you close;
WARNING!!!!!!
do NOT attempt to adjust the timing with the engine running,and make sure the ip bolts are tight between adjustment attempts.IP failure will most likely be the results.aka-broken shaft!! WARNING!!!
the lines on my pump are pretty much set dead on.unlike the pic of this pump below.i will not adjust my pump until i get my meter working,because i lack the experience required.i know and admit it to myself.therefore my truck will not self destruct because i didn't know or admit my limitations.so use caution and do NOT think i am encouraging you to attempt this yourself without the proper tools.
you should NOT attempt this without a meter.third and final warning.
this is the pic of the ip that Mel Agnem speaks of,above in the quote:
update;
this is also the neighborhood of my marks as well after using my meter on my rebuilt ip.no surprise really,as Mel has been doing this for years.but figured id toss in my 2 cents worth anyway lol.
Have an E40D transmission?
While making adjustments with the engine off of course,and making sure your 3 ip nuts are tight,now take the truck out for a test run.
find a steep hill and start out from a dead stop at the bottom.give her the skinny like you mean it,pay close attention to the shifts.
my understanding is the stock E40D's shift real mushy.i have a shift kit with firm shifts so i have no issue with this.anyway your looking for 3rd gear,and then pay close attention for the "semi shift" around 35 mph or so,this is the TC locking up,not to be confused with 4th(OD) either though.when your timing is off,this will feel very mushy and unpleasant.with correct engine timing,it just feels like a semi shift and still pulls nice and firm with no major torque loss.still nice with the diesel grunt we all love.
what can one expect roughly?
i have an 8k lb truck empty with NO turbo (at time of this post.)if i start at the bottom of a large hill in Maine,and press her to the floor,the ONLY way to loose speed at any time is to back off the skinny.otherwise i will exceed the posted limit of 45 mph here in very little time.we have large roads with 55 mph limits,but those are MUCH flatter roads,and would be far easier to reach and fly right on by 55 lol.
twist the ip towards the passenger side to advance the timing.
twist the ip towards the divers side to retard the timing.
remember,a little goes a long way.
small increments between test runs is the trick.
she'll have more rattle than your used to if yours has been retarded for a long time.
she'll also be pretty loud at first start of the day with much more extra rattle until the cold advance kicks off.think; "power stroke rattle",but once warm it shouldn't be confused with no gas engine either.diesels are supposed to rattle.
them injectors and ip's should really help bring them classic diesels back to life.however you'll need them timed properly to see their true value.
most reading this thread will be attempting to time by ear.just remember a little goes a long way.you can always try advancing a little more after a test run.
be careful you don't melt them glow plugs boys.good luck!!!
when your new ip's and injectors are in.........better yet,why not read up now,so you have an idea on what to do.start on page one and read through.enjoy.
make them IDI's turn some tires once again.
........uh,um.i meant bring back them long lost MPG's.please read the first caution in red again here before following the advice below.you have been warned...twice now lol.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/3...ml#post9617020
ok.if you know the risks involved now,and are ready to time by ear.this may help get you close;
Based on the number of trucks I've timed, and universal averages, I'd have to say your marks are right about where they should be. That is NOT to say for certain that this pump is timed correctly, but rather that ON AVERAGE this is about where the marks end up. I HAVE timed trucks where the mark on the pump is significantly to the right of where this one is, and also a tad more to the left, but by and by, this is the general spaciing I usually expect to see. Frankly, when I change out a pump, I do not line up the marks, but rather start them out right about here as you have shown it. It is in my experience that my timing is much closer to being dead on if I start it here, then if I align the marks as the book says to do.
do NOT attempt to adjust the timing with the engine running,and make sure the ip bolts are tight between adjustment attempts.IP failure will most likely be the results.aka-broken shaft!! WARNING!!!
the lines on my pump are pretty much set dead on.unlike the pic of this pump below.i will not adjust my pump until i get my meter working,because i lack the experience required.i know and admit it to myself.therefore my truck will not self destruct because i didn't know or admit my limitations.so use caution and do NOT think i am encouraging you to attempt this yourself without the proper tools.
you should NOT attempt this without a meter.third and final warning.
this is the pic of the ip that Mel Agnem speaks of,above in the quote:
update;
this is also the neighborhood of my marks as well after using my meter on my rebuilt ip.no surprise really,as Mel has been doing this for years.but figured id toss in my 2 cents worth anyway lol.
Have an E40D transmission?
While making adjustments with the engine off of course,and making sure your 3 ip nuts are tight,now take the truck out for a test run.
find a steep hill and start out from a dead stop at the bottom.give her the skinny like you mean it,pay close attention to the shifts.
my understanding is the stock E40D's shift real mushy.i have a shift kit with firm shifts so i have no issue with this.anyway your looking for 3rd gear,and then pay close attention for the "semi shift" around 35 mph or so,this is the TC locking up,not to be confused with 4th(OD) either though.when your timing is off,this will feel very mushy and unpleasant.with correct engine timing,it just feels like a semi shift and still pulls nice and firm with no major torque loss.still nice with the diesel grunt we all love.
what can one expect roughly?
i have an 8k lb truck empty with NO turbo (at time of this post.)if i start at the bottom of a large hill in Maine,and press her to the floor,the ONLY way to loose speed at any time is to back off the skinny.otherwise i will exceed the posted limit of 45 mph here in very little time.we have large roads with 55 mph limits,but those are MUCH flatter roads,and would be far easier to reach and fly right on by 55 lol.
twist the ip towards the passenger side to advance the timing.
twist the ip towards the divers side to retard the timing.
remember,a little goes a long way.
small increments between test runs is the trick.
she'll have more rattle than your used to if yours has been retarded for a long time.
she'll also be pretty loud at first start of the day with much more extra rattle until the cold advance kicks off.think; "power stroke rattle",but once warm it shouldn't be confused with no gas engine either.diesels are supposed to rattle.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
got my parts meter and i seem to be in action.
now if i can just find where that mysterious 3rd bolt on the ip is located.can't even see it.i guess it must be straight down.how the heck do you guys get a wrench on it lol?
here's my before mark locations (pretty much lined up.)
and current reading at 1400 rpm.
i tried a 2k rpm,and don't get anything for a reading.so i guess im gunna stick with the same 6.9l 1400rpm.
does this look pretty much right of a reading,for marks lined up to you guys with experience?
i should have turned the flash off.
the ips marks are lined up,and the bottom needle is with the engine revved to 1400 rpm.
now if i can just find where that mysterious 3rd bolt on the ip is located.can't even see it.i guess it must be straight down.how the heck do you guys get a wrench on it lol?
here's my before mark locations (pretty much lined up.)
and current reading at 1400 rpm.
i tried a 2k rpm,and don't get anything for a reading.so i guess im gunna stick with the same 6.9l 1400rpm.
does this look pretty much right of a reading,for marks lined up to you guys with experience?
i should have turned the flash off.
the ips marks are lined up,and the bottom needle is with the engine revved to 1400 rpm.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
what a miserable job lol.
im sure not used to so much rattle while driving.does seem to go good though.
ok,im not doing something right (which is most likely the case) or those numbers ADTC of .5-2 degrees sound WAY off and advancing just until 3 degrees ADTC sounds like lifters rattling on a gas engine.puts my mark way over more than the one in the pic,i backed off her so my meter reads about -6 degrees ATDC,this gives her more rattle,and puts my mark close to the spot where Mel says the average is.i wouldn't mind going to as much as -5 i guess.but man,i think im gunna try this.or i am just clueless as to what im doing?
ok,im gunna have to fix the poor connection at the crank sensor plug.i need to hold it just right to get a reading,using either meter. the one i had before and new one i got just for its crank sensor.pretty cool they both work and iv got 3 lumy probes.
anyway,i may have to just cut the stock adapters and wire up my own plugs,then she'll read steady and i'll try a 2k rpm reading again to see if that sets me close to the lower ATDC numbers than 1400 rpm does.im definitely in the ball park now with the -6 ATDC @ 1400 rpm i believe.i'll also try cyl #4 tomorrow as well to see if they match.
the meter sure is easy to use,but by god them bolts and trying to spin the dang ip was a **** poor design.they didn't have the guy doing the timing as first priority when placing them bolts.i see why guys rig up their own wrenches just for this now.
p.s
there's no way id try doing this by ear.i couldn't hear the difference between 4 degree's each way at idle at all.
i could tell when i went too far at -3.didn't sound good.but other than that,no freaking way.not with my lack of experience anyway.by the time i heard the difference,i was out of the ball park all together.likely would have melted the gp's if i left it and tried to start it with cold advance on tomorrow.
more testing required tomorrow once i fix my poor connection.i'll figure her out im sure.
im sure not used to so much rattle while driving.does seem to go good though.
ok,im not doing something right (which is most likely the case) or those numbers ADTC of .5-2 degrees sound WAY off and advancing just until 3 degrees ADTC sounds like lifters rattling on a gas engine.puts my mark way over more than the one in the pic,i backed off her so my meter reads about -6 degrees ATDC,this gives her more rattle,and puts my mark close to the spot where Mel says the average is.i wouldn't mind going to as much as -5 i guess.but man,i think im gunna try this.or i am just clueless as to what im doing?
ok,im gunna have to fix the poor connection at the crank sensor plug.i need to hold it just right to get a reading,using either meter. the one i had before and new one i got just for its crank sensor.pretty cool they both work and iv got 3 lumy probes.
anyway,i may have to just cut the stock adapters and wire up my own plugs,then she'll read steady and i'll try a 2k rpm reading again to see if that sets me close to the lower ATDC numbers than 1400 rpm does.im definitely in the ball park now with the -6 ATDC @ 1400 rpm i believe.i'll also try cyl #4 tomorrow as well to see if they match.
the meter sure is easy to use,but by god them bolts and trying to spin the dang ip was a **** poor design.they didn't have the guy doing the timing as first priority when placing them bolts.i see why guys rig up their own wrenches just for this now.
p.s
there's no way id try doing this by ear.i couldn't hear the difference between 4 degree's each way at idle at all.
i could tell when i went too far at -3.didn't sound good.but other than that,no freaking way.not with my lack of experience anyway.by the time i heard the difference,i was out of the ball park all together.likely would have melted the gp's if i left it and tried to start it with cold advance on tomorrow.
more testing required tomorrow once i fix my poor connection.i'll figure her out im sure.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
ok this will help greatly:
i dunno where he came up with those numbers:
"say 1.5* to 4.5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm for the 6.9 / 7.3 Ford style engines, 3* covers all cetane ranges regardless of altitude or cetane value. "
disregard that info and follow the original chart lol.i see guys all the time tossing around these real low (numerically) numbers,which is is very high advance when talking ATDC.
this makes no sense to me,nor my engine lol.
set your meters offset to 20 degrees and set the timing using that chart.it's that simple.this is why you must know the cetane value of your fuel to time this way.
if you don't know,pick the middle of the road at 5 degree's unless your up 3k ft.then pick 6.
if you suspect high quality fuel in your area,then go ahead and try advancing to 4 degree's.
just remember the cetane mandate in the US and Canada is only 40.
feel free to ask the station what the cetane rating is on their diesel fuel.haha.you'll get the deer in the headlight look,and have to explain its the rating like octane of gasoline for them to understand...that gets old fast lol.so don't hold your breath.
by a hydrometer when you can afford one.
so now i understand why around 6 and 7 degrees ATDC seems about right to my inexperienced ears!!! and that im not going mad!
ok.so i do have it pretty dang close with my cetain value and elevation.i just forgot to read everything i could find.
man.timing with yesteryear's technology is no easy feat.
now everything required for us old school luminosity timing guys should have everything in one thread.
you new(ish. lol) pulse methods guys have it easy.cheaters!
edit,another fuel to timing chart added;
Thanks for the reply bigredtruckmi,
The cetane value was another issue I encountered while trying to find info on the use of the luminosity style probes. Number one I have not been able to find a cetane meter. The next issue is the suggested cetane / timing value. I don’t have a lot on this but there are varying opinions, depending on the manuals, on that too.
Here’s one from autozone -
https://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0a/34/ba/0900823d800a34ba.jsp
They’ve got the cetane / timing value’s like this:
(I think 4-68J ROO 4-685 is in reference to the altitude?) If you have info on that I’d like that too.
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=148>Cetane <O
</O
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>Altitude 0 - 3000ft<O</O
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>Altitude above 3000ft
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>38-42
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>6* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>7* ATDC
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>43-46
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>5* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>6* ATDC
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>47-50
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>4* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>5* ATDC
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I guess what I was trying to say is that there could be a window – say 1.5* to 4.5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm for the 6.9 / 7.3 Ford style engines, 3* covers all cetane ranges regardless of altitude or cetane value. (I used the numbers you gave me because they seem to be close to what I’m seeing on my engine). Also my engine did not stop smoking at idle (650 rpm) until I got under 5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm, I can’t say at exactly what timing degree it was at when the smoke stopped but it was smoking when I checked it at 5* ATDC. Then when I checked it again after moving the timing, I was at about 1*, and it no longer smoked at idle. Why wouldn’t cetane have an impact on the pulse type adapter? Is every one setting the timing at 8.5* BTDC @ 2000 rpm when they use the pulse method or is there a window? If the cetane value affects the burning rate of the fuel (and we know it does) then it would be of benefit to both types of timing to know this value. From what I’ve found timing the engine using the pulse method has a 2* +/- window for checking and a 1* +/- window for setting, is this due to the cetane value? I think this is why the very experienced diesel mechanics (sounds better than the old-timers – LOL) would do the dynamic timing by ear even if they got it close using “a” timing meter.
Also worth noting -
<O</O
While trying to find information on how to use a meter with the luminosity style probe I ran across this on another site (sorry it was a GM site, I washed my eyes out with soap when I was done reading – LOL):
93
The cetane value was another issue I encountered while trying to find info on the use of the luminosity style probes. Number one I have not been able to find a cetane meter. The next issue is the suggested cetane / timing value. I don’t have a lot on this but there are varying opinions, depending on the manuals, on that too.
Here’s one from autozone -
https://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0a/34/ba/0900823d800a34ba.jsp
They’ve got the cetane / timing value’s like this:
(I think 4-68J ROO 4-685 is in reference to the altitude?) If you have info on that I’d like that too.
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" vAlign=top width=148>Cetane <O
</O</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>Altitude 0 - 3000ft<O
</O</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>Altitude above 3000ft
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>38-42
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>6* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>7* ATDC
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>43-46
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>5* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>6* ATDC
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>47-50
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>4* ATDC
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 110.7pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=148>5* ATDC
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I guess what I was trying to say is that there could be a window – say 1.5* to 4.5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm for the 6.9 / 7.3 Ford style engines, 3* covers all cetane ranges regardless of altitude or cetane value. (I used the numbers you gave me because they seem to be close to what I’m seeing on my engine). Also my engine did not stop smoking at idle (650 rpm) until I got under 5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm, I can’t say at exactly what timing degree it was at when the smoke stopped but it was smoking when I checked it at 5* ATDC. Then when I checked it again after moving the timing, I was at about 1*, and it no longer smoked at idle. Why wouldn’t cetane have an impact on the pulse type adapter? Is every one setting the timing at 8.5* BTDC @ 2000 rpm when they use the pulse method or is there a window? If the cetane value affects the burning rate of the fuel (and we know it does) then it would be of benefit to both types of timing to know this value. From what I’ve found timing the engine using the pulse method has a 2* +/- window for checking and a 1* +/- window for setting, is this due to the cetane value? I think this is why the very experienced diesel mechanics (sounds better than the old-timers – LOL) would do the dynamic timing by ear even if they got it close using “a” timing meter.
Also worth noting -
<O
</OWhile trying to find information on how to use a meter with the luminosity style probe I ran across this on another site (sorry it was a GM site, I washed my eyes out with soap when I was done reading – LOL):
- GM spec calls out TDC @ 1400 RPM, and Ford's NA specs vary depending on the elevation and your fuel cetane rating. Figures range from 4° to 7° ATDC @ 1400 RPM. There are many members on The Diesel Stop Forums, have found that advancing as far as 8.5° BTDC @ 2000 RPM provides a great deal more power with the tradeoff being some increased smoke and a little more diesel rattle. It may not be the ticket for everybody, but it's worth a try if you have the time.
93
"say 1.5* to 4.5* ATDC @ 2000 rpm for the 6.9 / 7.3 Ford style engines, 3* covers all cetane ranges regardless of altitude or cetane value. "
disregard that info and follow the original chart lol.i see guys all the time tossing around these real low (numerically) numbers,which is is very high advance when talking ATDC.
this makes no sense to me,nor my engine lol.
set your meters offset to 20 degrees and set the timing using that chart.it's that simple.this is why you must know the cetane value of your fuel to time this way.
if you don't know,pick the middle of the road at 5 degree's unless your up 3k ft.then pick 6.
if you suspect high quality fuel in your area,then go ahead and try advancing to 4 degree's.
just remember the cetane mandate in the US and Canada is only 40.
feel free to ask the station what the cetane rating is on their diesel fuel.haha.you'll get the deer in the headlight look,and have to explain its the rating like octane of gasoline for them to understand...that gets old fast lol.so don't hold your breath.
by a hydrometer when you can afford one.
so now i understand why around 6 and 7 degrees ATDC seems about right to my inexperienced ears!!! and that im not going mad!
ok.so i do have it pretty dang close with my cetain value and elevation.i just forgot to read everything i could find.
man.timing with yesteryear's technology is no easy feat.
now everything required for us old school luminosity timing guys should have everything in one thread.
you new(ish. lol) pulse methods guys have it easy.cheaters!
edit,another fuel to timing chart added;
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,151
Likes: 704
From: Mi'kma'ki
trust your meter
so yesterday i removed my original stamped 1993 Stanadyne code letter E's,and swapped them for a set of "rebuilt" (though they looked brand spanking new,so i suspect rather than rebuilt,they simply were left over new unused stock.) Delphi BB codes from U-HAUL and install kit.my originals were pretty bad.quite a few leaking/wet tips!
so today i finish up with the install kit.had a couple hose clamps to slide in place and put the anti vibe holders back on.
so i start up the ol gal,and i hear it's now extremely retarded (as i figured would be the case.)i mean it had lost its rattle so much it was sounding like a gas job with loud exhaust.
i say ok,time to hook up the meter.
well the lines on the pump were starting to scare me,it looked so far over (advanced) now from the mark.i stopped and started the engine several times making small adjustments,as i was so nervous about those lines.
soon i hear a bad injector knock! i thought,oh great.i got a worthless set of injectors.
finally,i stopped myself and said look;i changed to new injectors and i changed letter codes.forget about worrying about where that dang original timing mark is,and start trusting in the meter already!
i loosened up that pump and i turned it like i meant it this time.my meter and my ear knew what she needed.
tighten her back up and started her up.
well wouldn't you know it,she got some diesel rattle back to 'er and after just a couple little revs of the skinny,that injector knock became a thing of the past and she was purring like a kitten.
listen to those with experience,once the ip or injectors have been changed, toss them timing marks out the window and start tuning her up like you know how.
so today i finish up with the install kit.had a couple hose clamps to slide in place and put the anti vibe holders back on.
so i start up the ol gal,and i hear it's now extremely retarded (as i figured would be the case.)i mean it had lost its rattle so much it was sounding like a gas job with loud exhaust.
i say ok,time to hook up the meter.
well the lines on the pump were starting to scare me,it looked so far over (advanced) now from the mark.i stopped and started the engine several times making small adjustments,as i was so nervous about those lines.
soon i hear a bad injector knock! i thought,oh great.i got a worthless set of injectors.
finally,i stopped myself and said look;i changed to new injectors and i changed letter codes.forget about worrying about where that dang original timing mark is,and start trusting in the meter already!
i loosened up that pump and i turned it like i meant it this time.my meter and my ear knew what she needed.
tighten her back up and started her up.
well wouldn't you know it,she got some diesel rattle back to 'er and after just a couple little revs of the skinny,that injector knock became a thing of the past and she was purring like a kitten.
listen to those with experience,once the ip or injectors have been changed, toss them timing marks out the window and start tuning her up like you know how.