Environment license plates
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,362
Likes: 3
From: Hendersonville, NC
Originally Posted by n578md
I did a little search-a-roo on the old spider area (Web) and I found a few things about diesels and catalytic converters. You can't even get a diesel from the factory without a catalytic converter anymore. Doesn't the 6.0L Powerstroke and the 6.6L Duramax have catalytic converters? The January 1st 1994 and later 5.9L Cummins have a catalytic converter, and I know we had a 1996 Chevrolet 6.5L turbo diesel at work that had a cat. It seems that Ford has been able to do without one until the 2003 1/2 introduction of the 6.0L. The newer 6.0L diesels also have EGR valves while my 5.4L does not, what about that? Are Ford gasoline 3/4 and 1 ton vehicles better in emissions? Probably better than they ever were because my 2003 5.4L can pass ULEV standards with the sole emissions control device being the cat converter, not counting the evap canister purge valve for the gas tank. (No EGR, no DPFE, no downstream O2 sensors, no A.I.R. pumps, no TAB , no TAD, no cat heater.) And it still puts out 70% less NOx than most diesels. (If we go by European figures.)
A few reasons come to mind as to why cat converters were not required earlier. Diesels have been available in consumer vehicles only since 1982 (6.2L GM diesel, unless you count the rare diesels in the 1978 Dodge Power Wagon.) These vehicles were mostly of the 8500 GVWR and above size which has had much laxer emission standards. Just recently are these standards including diesels. Yes, true, there were the odd europen cars here and there but not enough to redefine the rules. (my guess) Also, according to an article I found, diesels including heavy trucks still only make up 1/4 of all vehicles in use in the US. There is a much greater number of gassers out there, hence the cat requirements.
A few reasons come to mind as to why cat converters were not required earlier. Diesels have been available in consumer vehicles only since 1982 (6.2L GM diesel, unless you count the rare diesels in the 1978 Dodge Power Wagon.) These vehicles were mostly of the 8500 GVWR and above size which has had much laxer emission standards. Just recently are these standards including diesels. Yes, true, there were the odd europen cars here and there but not enough to redefine the rules. (my guess) Also, according to an article I found, diesels including heavy trucks still only make up 1/4 of all vehicles in use in the US. There is a much greater number of gassers out there, hence the cat requirements.
Would you like me to scan them and send them to your email?
Last edited by PSD 60L Fx4; Sep 19, 2004 at 11:31 AM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 5
From: Allen, Tx
Originally Posted by PSD 60L Fx4
The 5.4 has EGR, DPFE, and downstream, heated O2 sensors. Sorry to knock youoff your soapbox, but I can send you the pages out of the techical manual in my hand that shows how to change all of them. I had a 5.4 before my 6.0, and had to go around all sorts of that crap when modifiying it. It has FAR more emmission control systems than the 6.0
Would you like me to scan them and send them to your email?
Would you like me to scan them and send them to your email?
I actually own a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L.
Would you like me to take pictures and show you? 2003 F250's with a 5.4L have none of the things you mentioned. After not finding any of the above in my truck, I posted the very question 6 months ago on the HD/SD forum and a 2002 F250 5.4L owner posted his truck doesn't have them either. If you don't want to buy a current "technical manual" for a truck you don't own (which I understand), you can call a parts house or Ford dealer and ask them for a DPFE, EGR or downstream O2 sensors for a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L if you don't believe me. You'll be on hold for a while so call a local number. They might come back with an O2 sensor part but that'll be the upstream sensors (mounted on the exhaust manifolds) that are used to adjust the mixture rather than the non-existant downstreams O2 sensor (installed at the catalytic converter outlet) that is a pollution control device. You probably had a 1999-2001 unit, I know my 1999 F250/5.4L had all that stuff but it wasn't LEV much less ULEV rated.BTW, Ford doesn't make a 6.0L diesel, MY 1984 technical manual says they only make a 6.9L diesel...
Originally Posted by tdister
Thanks for allowing a rational debate to happen n578md. I've learned a few things researching trying to argue w/ you. I welcome any contributions you can offer to the subject.
Last edited by n578md; Sep 19, 2004 at 01:24 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,362
Likes: 3
From: Hendersonville, NC
Originally Posted by n578md
You are using outdated material!!!! Please purchase "CURRENT" material before you tell me that I don't know what I have.
I actually own a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L. Would you like me to take pictures and show you? 2003 F250's with a 5.4L have none of the things you mentioned. After not finding any of the above in my truck, I posted the very question 6 months ago on the HD/SD forum and a 2002 F250 5.4L owner posted his truck doesn't have them either. If you don't want to buy a current "technical manual" for a truck you don't own (which I understand), you can call a parts house or Ford dealer and ask them for a DPFE, EGR or downstream O2 sensors for a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L if you don't believe me. You'll be on hold for a while so call a local number. They might come back with an O2 sensor part but that'll be the upstream sensors (mounted on the exhaust manifolds) that are used to adjust the mixture rather than the non-existant downstreams O2 sensor (installed at the catalytic converter outlet) that is a pollution control device. You probably had a 1999-2001 unit, I know my 1999 F250/5.4L had all that stuff but it wasn't LEV much less ULEV rated.
BTW, Ford doesn't make a 6.0L diesel, MY 1984 technical manual says they only make a 6.9L diesel...
Thanks tdister, I enjoyed it too. We did have a good debate going. It has become rare to find someone such as yourself in a gas vs. diesel thread that doesn't argue with his emotions.
I actually own a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L.
Would you like me to take pictures and show you? 2003 F250's with a 5.4L have none of the things you mentioned. After not finding any of the above in my truck, I posted the very question 6 months ago on the HD/SD forum and a 2002 F250 5.4L owner posted his truck doesn't have them either. If you don't want to buy a current "technical manual" for a truck you don't own (which I understand), you can call a parts house or Ford dealer and ask them for a DPFE, EGR or downstream O2 sensors for a 2003 F250 with a 5.4L if you don't believe me. You'll be on hold for a while so call a local number. They might come back with an O2 sensor part but that'll be the upstream sensors (mounted on the exhaust manifolds) that are used to adjust the mixture rather than the non-existant downstreams O2 sensor (installed at the catalytic converter outlet) that is a pollution control device. You probably had a 1999-2001 unit, I know my 1999 F250/5.4L had all that stuff but it wasn't LEV much less ULEV rated.BTW, Ford doesn't make a 6.0L diesel, MY 1984 technical manual says they only make a 6.9L diesel...
Thanks tdister, I enjoyed it too. We did have a good debate going. It has become rare to find someone such as yourself in a gas vs. diesel thread that doesn't argue with his emotions.
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 5
From: Allen, Tx
Dude, what's it going to take? The manual is wrong. They probably copied that section from the F150 manual. I have a REAL truck that you can see, touch, smell, taste and hear! (I wouldn't recommend the taste part though.) Look at these pictures, I just snapped them 5 minutes ago. They are of the same angle and view as the pages you posted. Plus there's a view of the throttle body where the DPFE and EGR should be and also a view of the undrilled bung into which the EGR exhaust tube (that isn't there) "should" plug into. This is on a 2003 F250 XL 5.4L/6-speed/3.73LS Reg Cab long bed manufactured 05/03/2003.
I mean, Come on Matt, I'm not telling you this to hurt your feelings, I'm just showing you what's in an actual 2003 F250. It just doesn't have any of that stuff and reportedly, the 2002 didn't either.
On Edit: Even when I plug in my OBD II scanner in it and I do an I/M test, it says EGR not supported and HO2S not supported.
I mean, Come on Matt, I'm not telling you this to hurt your feelings, I'm just showing you what's in an actual 2003 F250. It just doesn't have any of that stuff and reportedly, the 2002 didn't either.
On Edit: Even when I plug in my OBD II scanner in it and I do an I/M test, it says EGR not supported and HO2S not supported.
Last edited by n578md; Sep 19, 2004 at 02:50 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,362
Likes: 3
From: Hendersonville, NC
Originally Posted by n578md
Dude, what's it going to take? The manual is wrong. They probably copied that section from the F150 manual. I have a REAL truck that you can see, touch, smell, taste and hear! (I wouldn't recommend the taste part though.) Look at these pictures, I just snapped them 5 minutes ago. They are of the same angle and view as the pages you posted. Plus there's a view of the throttle body where the DPFE and EGR should be and also a view of the undrilled bung into which the EGR exhaust tube (that isn't there) "should" plug into. This is on a 2003 F250 XL 5.4L/6-speed/3.73LS Reg Cab long bed manufactured 05/03/2003.
I mean, Come on Matt, I'm not telling you this to hurt your feelings, I'm just showing you what's in an actual 2003 F250. It just doesn't have any of that stuff and reportedly, the 2002 didn't either.
On Edit: Even when I plug in my OBD II scanner in it and I do an I/M test, it says EGR not supported and HO2S not supported.
I mean, Come on Matt, I'm not telling you this to hurt your feelings, I'm just showing you what's in an actual 2003 F250. It just doesn't have any of that stuff and reportedly, the 2002 didn't either.
On Edit: Even when I plug in my OBD II scanner in it and I do an I/M test, it says EGR not supported and HO2S not supported.
I had a 2003 model 5.4; it was my first vehicle; a late 2002 engine production date. I honestly don't remember anything about an EGR system but I could have SWORN it had downstream O2 sensors. Anyways, I apologize for for a frivolous argument, I have just never encoutered such a circumstace in the manuals and automatically assumed that the system was there. I still wonder if there isn't something that both of us are overlooking (is it possible it has something to do with the manual transmission? Unlikely, but nonetheless).
Makes me wish I would have went with headers and dumped the cats on my old truck now
I drop my argument now, I have been outdone....oh well
Im not even sure why I started it, I couldn't care less how much ANYTHING pollutes to be totally honest
I must have just been really bored.
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 5
From: Allen, Tx
Bah, don't sweat it. Outdone? I guess only by the vertue that I have the benefit of having one to look at. As far as Ford making mistakes, I can believe it. The 2002, 2003 AND 2004 BBA manuals still list the front axle on 4WD F250's as a Dana 50 instead of a Dana 60. I'm sure there are a whole bunch more stuff like that. It's very difficult noticing stuff that isn't there. I bought my truck in mid June 2003 and didn't notice it until February 2004. I didn't even know what I had in my own truck until someone posted and asked where exactly was the DPFE located. I went out and looked... surprise! No EGR valve, no DPFE! Same for the downstream O2 after someone asked about the exhaust size and were the outlets and stuff were located on the muffler. No O2's on the cat. RSHOBER replied that he has a 2002 F250/5.4L and he didn't have any of that stuff either. I think he has an automatic though. The only other thing I can think of, besides it being a manual tranny, is that my truck was a fleet order. Who the hell else would buy something as stripped down as this thing? 
I don't really care how much these things pollute either but I was too tempted to dispute the fact that Biodiesel does not pollute at all (vs. gasoline engines). I had some wacko lady come up to me at a grocery store parking lot who asked me how many miles per gallon I got with my truck. I saw her coming 10 miles away on her environmentalist high-horse and I lied and told her 9 MPG. 
She told me I should be ashamed of myself and that I should get something better for the environment and all kind of pinko babble.(I'm still not ashamed, BTW.) I told her that if she was so worried, why was she driving a 15 year old Camry and that she should also look at newer and less polluting vehicles. She took off. Hey, now that I think of it, how come you got rid of your 5.4L? Was there just not enough power?
I don't really care how much these things pollute either but I was too tempted to dispute the fact that Biodiesel does not pollute at all (vs. gasoline engines). I had some wacko lady come up to me at a grocery store parking lot who asked me how many miles per gallon I got with my truck. I saw her coming 10 miles away on her environmentalist high-horse and I lied and told her 9 MPG. She told me I should be ashamed of myself and that I should get something better for the environment and all kind of pinko babble.(I'm still not ashamed, BTW.) I told her that if she was so worried, why was she driving a 15 year old Camry and that she should also look at newer and less polluting vehicles. She took off. Hey, now that I think of it, how come you got rid of your 5.4L? Was there just not enough power?
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,362
Likes: 3
From: Hendersonville, NC
Originally Posted by n578md
Bah, don't sweat it. Outdone? I guess only by the vertue that I have the benefit of having one to look at. As far as Ford making mistakes, I can believe it. The 2002, 2003 AND 2004 BBA manuals still list the front axle on 4WD F250's as a Dana 50 instead of a Dana 60. I'm sure there are a whole bunch more stuff like that. It's very difficult noticing stuff that isn't there. I bought my truck in mid June 2003 and didn't notice it until February 2004. I didn't even know what I had in my own truck until someone posted and asked where exactly was the DPFE located. I went out and looked... surprise! No EGR valve, no DPFE! Same for the downstream O2 after someone asked about the exhaust size and were the outlets and stuff were located on the muffler. No O2's on the cat. RSHOBER replied that he has a 2002 F250/5.4L and he didn't have any of that stuff either. I think he has an automatic though. The only other thing I can think of, besides it being a manual tranny, is that my truck was a fleet order. Who the hell else would buy something as stripped down as this thing? I don't really care how much these things pollute either but I was too tempted to dispute the fact that Biodiesel does not pollute at all (vs. gasoline engines). I had some wacko lady come up to me at a grocery store parking lot who asked me how many miles per gallon I got with my truck. I saw her coming 10 miles away on her environmentalist high-horse and I lied and told her 9 MPG. She told me I should be ashamed of myself and that I should get something better for the environment and all kind of pinko babble.(I'm still not ashamed, BTW.) I told her that if she was so worried, why was she driving a 15 year old Camry and that she should also look at newer and less polluting vehicles. She took off. Hey, now that I think of it, how come you got rid of your 5.4L? Was there just not enough power?
I don't really care how much these things pollute either but I was too tempted to dispute the fact that Biodiesel does not pollute at all (vs. gasoline engines). I had some wacko lady come up to me at a grocery store parking lot who asked me how many miles per gallon I got with my truck. I saw her coming 10 miles away on her environmentalist high-horse and I lied and told her 9 MPG. She told me I should be ashamed of myself and that I should get something better for the environment and all kind of pinko babble.(I'm still not ashamed, BTW.) I told her that if she was so worried, why was she driving a 15 year old Camry and that she should also look at newer and less polluting vehicles. She took off. Hey, now that I think of it, how come you got rid of your 5.4L? Was there just not enough power? )My 6.0 gets 14 with my foot buried, and has alot more power. The 5.4 got great mileage as long as you kept your foot out of the throttle, but god knows I can't do that
And by the way, I despise people like that lady myself...they are ridiculous. I'd LOVE to leave the parking lot and her be around, with my Edge module on full blast, no cat, no EGR, and the oily deposits from my rerouted crankcase ventilation, and light the tires on fire next to her car, leaving her in a massive black cloud of commie-pinko-environmento-kryptonite.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Damifiknow
1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
13
Mar 8, 2017 07:40 PM
Rimrock F1
1948 - 1956 F1, F100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
40
Jun 9, 2016 08:21 PM
Macrobb
Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)
17
May 29, 2016 10:30 AM
