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hello all. im new here and hoping to get some help. i recently rebuilt a 351c , it has a 408 stroker kit, stock heads , Edelbrock
intake and a Holley sniper. The cam is a competition cam split duration RV cam.i have wiped out 2 cams one on break in on the stand and the 2nd after about 1000 miles on the engine. Both failures were at the back of the cam on cylinders 4and 8.Before i did this project i had read that Cleveland's have oil supply issues at the back of the motor but the article specified for race engines or high rpm motors, didn't think i need to worry about it since this was not a race motor. I also know that competition cams had quality issues in the last few years, and so this is my dilemma, do i have a cam and lifter issues or a oiling issue. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
thanks , and your correct, thing is i thought i would be ok with the hydraulic cam and lifts for a basically stock motor. well anyway i may have to revisit the roller cam idea but go with a different cam manufacturer
So if your oiling is "stock" you should never have had cam oiling issues.
According to HRM (iirc) one of the main reasons the OEMs all went roller was warranty claims. GM had major mushroom lifter issues some time back, and I guess it wasn't just them. That you gain some fraction of a MPG is just a bonus.
Go through it again and see if there is something fubar with your oiling--if you haven't already.
i agree and we are in the process of checking my oiling system we just got the cam out today. im taking my cam and lifters over to a local engine builder and it get his take on my situation.ill check out the link you sent too.again thanks for your time sir.
One thing being comp stuff I would check, double check, and check again the valve train geometry. I have had comps have pretty small base circles and lets face it.. even on stock engines, if the valve stem gets a little taller from a grind, a valve spring gets a little stiffer, maybe a rocker arm is a little shorter, now you have a severe valve train issue causing when the cam comes up on a lobe it is causing the rocker arm to push sideways more than down on valve this causes unnecessary stress on cam causing lifter and cam failure. Google ford 460 valve train geometry (same rocker arm group as cleveland) If you are curious. It can make a HUGE difference in performance, sound, longevity.
Was the engine completely torn down after the first cam failure, everything cleaned, including oil passages, and damaged bearing replaced if any from the first failure?
Cam and lifter failures seem to be more common than in the past. Or we hear about it more. A roller cam will eliminate this issue but it's not cheap. (Cheaper than rebuilding it again) and again.
Not saying you goofed or anything like that ... but in the interest of learning ...
Originally Posted by 77 HOS
What was the break in procedure done each time?
What oil are.you using?
Any oil additives?
Was the engine completely torn down after the first cam failure, everything cleaned, including oil passages, and damaged bearing replaced if any from the first failure?
Cam and lifter failures seem to be more common than in the past. Or we hear about it more. A roller cam will eliminate this issue but it's not cheap. (Cheaper than rebuilding it again) and again.
In today's world flat tappet camshaft break in is not forgiving in any way. Spring loads have to be right and they have to be very conservative. I'd shoot for no more than about 90 seat and 250lbs open initially. Using an oil that is formulated for engine break in is also important along with zero idle time for at least the first 30 minutes or so of running. When the cam is installed lubricate only the lobes with a lube that's formulated for this sort of thing, a moly disulfide paste or some specialty lube. I use the Driven Racing Assembly lube most of the time now. On the lifters lube only the faces and not the sides, crank up oil pressure before starting the engine and once it starts keep the speed up above 2000rpm. This throws more oil onto the cam and it also tends to move some of the loading away from the nose and over to the flanks which helps. I don't think that it is a problem if you have to run it a while and then stop a few times.
Most of the stories that you read about the shortcomings of the 429/460 and Cleveland oiling system are wives tales. The main inadequacy is that it is more difficult to restrict the oiling to the valvetrain when running solid lifters and if you happen to have a mishap and toss out a lifter on the right side oil pressure falls to zero.
All of what Dave said and;
The problem with all but the most high-end flat tappet lifters these days is they are all made where English isn't their first language. And half of them are junk. I go to e-bay and find NOS, TRW VL-35's, Johnson HT-900's or any one of a dozen Ford part numbers and make sure the box says made in USA. It takes 90% of the heartburn out of break in and you don't have to worry about one collapsing 1000 mi down the road.
I'd be checking those 2 valves very closely - springs, rockers, pushrods, etc. I'd think if it was an oiling problem, it wouldn't have wiped out the exact same 2 lobes & lifters twice. What is the condition of the rest of the cam & lifters? I was not as careful as I should have been with the break-in of my cam, & everything turned out fine with it. Had a valve spring break after ~5 years, so when I installed new springs, I pulled a couple lifters for inspection & they all still looked perfect.
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