@BWST and @Peixinho, I can't thank you enough for the time you've put into my problem. I've been watching the conversation all day, and thought it best to listen and learn. What I've surmised so far is:

1) The EBP pulses I'm seeing aren't a problem, and are almost certainly not the problem. Even though mine are of larger amplitude and duration than others, chasing root cause on those isn't likely to help me improve the performance of my turbo.
2) I should diligently check again for leaks on both sides, but if I don't find them, they probably aren't there.
3) The issue may be that I have combined three really good products - a ported housing, a wheel designed for a ported housing, and an upgraded turbine - and created a turbo that's a pretty mediocre performer at altitude.

If the latter point is the case, what do I change, and what other choice do I make? I'm open to changing any of these things, but my thoughts are: Swapping the housing back to stock doesn't seem right, if for no other reason than my intake is built around the 4" opening. I could go back to the stock turbine, but I bought it because EGT's have always been an issue for my truck towing up the tall passes, and I like the promise it makes of lowering those. That leaves the 11+0 turbine wheel, which, oddly, made higher boost with the stock turbine at this altitude. Still, If I could swap the wheel and gain the benefit I was seeking with the turbine, I'd do it. Thoughts?

The other variable which I haven't changed in years is tuning. I understand my DP is known for running a bit hot, but I like the other parts so much (e.g. transmission behavior, and having choices in that behavior, exhaust brake) that I am loath to change. Still, that's on the table, too.

Mark

 

I didn’t know how much I disliked dp toons until I got better tuning. Drive by pyro was life and that meant redline RPM’s and driving SLOW above 5k feet elevation. Even Jody’s attempt at ‘high altitude’ tune provided no joy. The next tunes I ran, I literally could not put EGT in the red - the only change was tunes.

Plus, both engines I ran those tunes in for 100k miles had the same type of catastrophic failure that was most likely due to too much timing. That’s when this video was produced. Joe Oram (CSIPSD) was the president of the dp hater club.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=no79GO...layer_embedded

 

LOL! I remember Joe, and some of those threads. I actually bought a Hydra around that time, but was underwhelmed with the options available, and went back to my F6. I wish I'd have kept it, just so I could easily try different things.

Mark

 

Good point, SSJ. Mark, that might be the better way to go, to potentially be able to continue to use your turbo setup as is. Have to give up DP actuated exhaust brake though...maybe set that aside for now and get the truck dialed in otherwise. I know what I'm using works reasonably well (hardwired controller for EBPV).

@brokestroke what brand tunes are you using with your setup? I saw 65hp mentioned in the thread, but not the creator.


https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post19987447

 

At this point it is hard for me to speculate as to why it is not working correctly. I can't say I have had any scenario where someone added an upgraded turbine wheel and lost performance... no matter which style wheel.

The curious tester in me would love to see you switch back to a stock turbine wheel to see if you actually gain performance back... (granted as it gets cooler that will throw off the data, I have seen people swap parts as summer approaches and swap back as winter approaches and not recognize the affect). Even after that you have mentioned you were not getting the performance you wanted even with that combo.

The logical person says that we are chasing improvement on a combo that I am not familiar with, I actually didn't know RiffRaff sold a different wheel specifically for the ATS cover. I typically just see his 4x4 wheel. You could swap to a 6x6 KC wheel or 4x4 Riffraff wheel because I am very familiar with that combo.

I don't see any way how a ported cover could lose performance. It just does not make sense to me. I am not saying they will gain a bunch of performance, beside the anti-surge portion of the cover. It opens up the surge line of the map and slightly increases the efficiency islands of a compressor wheel. I don't see how that can be negative... but again I did not test it.


Depending on how much time/effort you want to put into this you could
Swap back to a stock turbine wheel, which is the easiest solution
Add 6x6 KC or 4x4 RiffRaff wheel
Swap on a stock cover
Upgrade to KC s1
Skip all that and go t4 with a smaller turbo like 363/68


I feel bad for your issues and appreciate your dedication to finding the problems. Let me know what you are thinking... also maybe send me an email because I often miss tags on forums posts.
charlie@kcturbos.com

 

I know people that love DP tunes... I don't like to trash talk anyone. Even though I push PHP, I am not one of those guys who blames everything on Jody.
Yes, I have seen people switch away from DP tunes because of issues...
But I have also seen people switch away and be disappointed.

I am very loyal to PHP and love their tuner, tuning platform, open source ability to allow you to pick other tuners... but don't see that as the reason why you lost performance on a turbine wheel swap.

 

Wow, Charlie (@Peixinho) . If I need a turbo, I'm coming to you. I'll drop you a note, as requested, but for the sake of the discussion will ask here, too: Would my 6300+ foot altitude, and the fact that I tow from there up too 11K+, but never below 4000ft, cause you to recommend one compressor wheel over another? I've thought about swapping wheels, as I'm willing to bet a few more dollars, and a little more effort, to get this thing like I think it can be.

I may change tuners, too, but I'd like to do that with a hardware config that's as good as I can get it, and I don't think I'm there yet.

Mark

 

Hey Mark,

When I first bought my truck The stock turbo would barely get me up Ute pass here in the Springs, no chip but extremely high EGT’s…barely 45mph and 1260*+. I eventually found that my CAT was plugged in the truck, I cut it off, hollowed it out, shoved the four-inch pipe through it and welded that in place I went to a 4 inch turbo back exhaust. That helped but I was still seeing her EGT‘s.

I went to an MST using SP turbos 5 x 5 wheel it was a slight improvement, again no chip but I still was driving by the EGT gauge. I eventually bought a hydra and tried 1023 tunes and they sucked along with the customer service. I eventually made the decision to try KC turbo 63/73 stage two with stock injectors and PHP tunes 25HP MVB and 40 HP MVB towing tunes. This allowed me to keep my speed up, OD off but I was still pushing 1200° climbing UTE pass and or Wilkerson pass. I was able to do the speed limit but like I said the EGT‘s were borderline.

I spoke with Charlie several times, tested for leaks found several I fixed and then at the suggestion of Charlie tried Andrew Aurther Tunes. That right there was the solution. His tunes easily run anywhere from 250 to 290° cooler than the same PHP TUNES. I pulled a gooseneck trailer with my cat loader on it combined weight was 26,491 pounds (per CAT scale) . I came from Florence up Highway 115 into the springs, if you’re familiar with that then you know it’s nonstop rolling Hills with steep climbs. With overdrive off I was able to maintain speed limit, I even passed several vehicles in the passing lanes and my EGT‘s were right around the middle 1100s. I could literally do anything I wanted on that road with the truck and only one time did I barely hit 1200 and that was a vehicle in front of me I was going slow and I had to drop my speed and RPMs. If I were to do the turbo again out here with stock injectors I would do the stage one. My plan has always been to go to 205/30’s…

I think I responded to your p.m. that I’m back in town and if you need help just let me know.

 

Thanks John!! Your experience is helpful. I'll respond to your PM. I could use another set of eyes on this thing and, frankly, a look at my expectations, as well.

Mark

 

Im running PHP tunes.

 

Mark, your reluctance to change to a different tuner and hardware is understandable. I have had Gear Head tunes that I thought were great when I first ran them, then 1023 tunes that I thought were great when I first ran them. Now, I don't run either of those and use a PHP 65 HP tune all the time. Loaded to 20,000 lbs GCVW or unloaded, that is my forward motion tune. Although, I have a ZF6 transmission, so 75% of the difficulty of finding a "good tuner" is negated. I only have one other tune on the Hydra, that is the 1100 RPM high idle. Even then, some of the other PHP tunes just don't work well for me. I see no gain in performance with the 80 HP tune, but a bit of smoke haze when on the throttle towing a grade. Easy enough, I switched back to the 65 HP and have been that way for almost 3 years now.

DP has a bad reputation with some FTE'rs and people. Some of those people have been customers of DP, some are relaying secondary information. Every other tuner on this planet has customers or people relaying secondary information that is not in a favorable light. We are here to support you in your decisions going forward regarding tuning and/or hardware swaps, but you are the one that must pay for them with money and time. We are only hopeful that the 1st shot is on the target and you don't have to take multiple shots in order to achieve success.

A good friend of mine runs DP tunes and sticks with them because they shift his slush box 4R100 great and he has the exhaust brake ability. No other commercially available tuner offers an exhaust brake feature. So, Jody has that feature wrapped up in a nice little package that is a benefit to his proprietary hardware and tunes as a bonus for choosing him as your tuner. I don't blame my friend for having DP tunes and frankly told him "if you are happy with the tunes, don't change..." I encourage him to make the decision that is best for his application.

Your elevation and towing weight is a factor, absolutely it is. Although, it is not the only factor, you know that and so do we. You have identified a combination that does not work well for your application, but we and you just don't know what that combination is at this point. You are narrowing it down though and I have faith you will get it sorted out soon.

That said, you have been down just about every road with this issue and are left only a couple of choices going forward. You have some choices ahead of you and each of them has a dollar value assigned to it and a hardware swap.

Good luck to you Mark.

 

I am confused. What DP are you referring to?

 

Never mind, I saw Brokestroke’s comment about running PHP and .....

 

Unable to read the whole thread, I'm unsure if this is resolved or not. I'm just chiming in to let you know I'll have a good look at this when I get back to a laptop in a few days.

 

@ScaldedDog Mark, I was out mowing today and you popped into my head and I was hoping for an update. Even if there is no update, that is still an update to those of us that genuinely want to help you and see you have the opportunity to shout "VICTORY!!!"

I thought I would send you a text at first, but then thought that I am sure some other FTE'rs are curious about how you are getting along with this.