More likely tired injectors than weak HPOP.

I dunno what causes high aluminum. I’ve seen engines full of brass after catastrophic HPOP failure.

 

This looks like RPM climbing and ICP dropping and is what I expect to see from tired injectors or HPOP.

 

Those moderate pulls are not as useful data for ICP/IPR DC as a long, sustained WOT pull.

I agree, comparing a ‘stock’ file to some of the other toons is a good idea.

 

Agreed and turns out we were looking at two different points in the chart.

Agree on this as well as what BWST said for comparison.

@ScaldedDog , is it possible for you to attach the .csv file to a post? During this instance of comparing specific data points, it might be useful looking at the individual cells of data that populated the chart giving us a broad overview.

 

Guys, I really appreciate your help! I made some test runs this afternoon, and have data. I'll embed the graphs, and attach the .csv files. On each run, I started logging, pulled onto the entrance ramp for about 50 ft, then made the sharp turn onto the ramp and started accelerating.

Stock tune (only modified for my BTS transmission)


60H tune


80H tune



What do these tell you?

Mark

 

After looking at the data myself, but without the experience you guys have of looking at different trucks and setups, I have a few impressions and conclusions:

Butt dyno - It seemed to me that performance had improved some, though not dramatically. ***** out runs aren't something I do much of, so I'm not certain of this. Certainly there was a dramatic difference in the feel of the three tunes when making a run, and the 10-65mph times confirm this. (22.26, 20.35 and 19.71s, respectively, for stock, 60h and 80h tunes) Also, I *think* the exhaust brake was stronger, and I saw higher EBP with it than I saw when I tried it the day before. Perhaps cleaning the EBP sensor and tube helped here.

HPOP - keeps up fine with stock tuning on stock sticks. (Agreed?) It can't get much past 2000psi in the two tunes, but is that indicative of a problem, or a function of the really wide pulse widths? In looking at the data, ICP builds steadily until PW exceeds 3.5ms, then hold steady after that, but at a pretty low value.

Terminator is happy to have a look at my HPOP, and fix whatever is found, but I'm not sure that's necessary right now. What I need is to tow with this thing, and see if it really is back to normal, or or not.

Thoughts?

Mark

 

A healthy truck will make 2800-3000psi of ICP and maintain close to 2800psi during unlimited sustained WOT - like pulling 20k lb trailer up the grapevine. IPR DC should stay under 40%.

High DC can be from ‘poor’ tuning strategy. Your tuner used to call for 3200psi which most trucks cannot maintain. This often throws a P1211 and the tuner instructed people to upgrade HPOP which sometimes works.

Sounds like weak HPOP, IPR or tired injectors. Not sure how to figure out which is the culprit??

 

Thanks Jason. Is the maintenance of those higher ICP levels true even in a "moderate" (what most folks call a 60h) tune?

Now we're back to the the game of "Bet ScaldedDog's Money". I really need to tow again to see if this thing is back to "normal". If it is, then the graphs just show how the tune behaves, for better or worse. (BTW, I have a T500 for exactly the reason you described.)

One thing I forgot to mention is that this truck only has 167K on it. Does that decrease the likelihood of injectors being the culprit?

Mark

 

Any tune - even stock - should produce and maintain 2800psi at WOT.

 

I am still on my phone, so looking at the charts and spreadsheets is difficult. So, in an effort to not step on toes, I will refrain from commenting on the new charts and uploaded spreadsheets (thank you for that).

A bit of "light" reading for you on EGT, FUELPW and IPR DC is below.

EGT vs FUELPW vs ICP vs IPR DC...

 

Down to brass tacks - a stock truck should see the following:

IPR DC should never exceed ~40%.

ICP should peak between 2800-3000psi and maintain in excess of 2600psi ALL DAY LONG if you keep the ‘***** to the wall’ (WW1 pilot-speak for throttle ‘*****’ against the firewall - aka WOT/wide open throttle).

The lollygagging around going to the grocery store does not test this. You’ve got to drop the hammer in OD and be able to accelerate without downshifting. This is going to be a 60 to 90mph run on flat ground. If you have a big hill, a heavy load or a manual transmission and can hold WOT for 10secs or more - that counts.

In this situation, 2600psi feels ‘a little weak’, 2200psi a ‘a TURD’ and under 1800psi ‘won’t pull a greased string out of a cats ***’.

My last HPOP would drop to 1100psi and I got passed by a kid on a tricycle on the sidewalk pulling the small hill into town. This was a slow failure that started with higher and higher DC until maxed out DC would not maintain ICP.

Sous is experiencing this decline now. With a strong HPOP and fresh injectors - he will not see over 40% DC with good tuning (same as what he runs now is adequate - but in any of the tunes I know he’s tried for sure). His truck could continue to run fine for years with the curve I had, but replacing the worn parts will produce immediate changes in power, MPG, EGT (and smoke in hotter tunes).

 

I didn't know the miles were that low. That does minimize internal leaking injectors as the cause of low ICP.

I agree with SSJ, this truck should hold 2600-2800 ICP stock or with good tunes all day. Your stock tune does show the HPOP can keep up with normal demand. I think the DP tunes are taxing the HPOP, but if you want to stick with those 60 and 80HP tunes, more power means more oil pressure at those high RPM fuel pulse widths.

I'd start in order of expense, and go ahead and rebuild the IPR one more time. If that does not help, or help enough with ICP, consider an o-ring test to see if you are losing any high pressure oil to the o-rings. After that, I'd probably have Terminator look over the HPOP.

Great data so far, ScaldedDog, thank you. I'm still sick, so not able to do much analysis. No toes stepped on if anybody wants to analyze further - that's always true by the way.

 

I really appreciate you guys taking a look at this. @BWST , I didn't realize you're playin' hurt. Thanks!!!

A question, and additional data point:

Question: Would leaking O-rings necessarily cause the fuel filter to be black? It's as white as a T-shirt after 2300 miles. If the O-ring test procedure is in the tech folder, I'll have a look.

Data point: I was going to say my truck has never been able to hold those ICP levels, but I found a 25-75mph run I logged with AE in 2013, and it held 2600-2780psi for that run, at 3.9ms PW and DC just shy of 70%. Much different than the run I did yesterday, in the same tune. I haven't changed anything pertinent on the truck since then, as the T500, IPR rebuild, and new injector O-rings were all done in the year or three before that.

Does any of this change anything?

Mark

 

External injector o-rings do not necessarily turn the filter black.

It is unlikely Motorcraft or Alliant o-rings would have failed in that amount of time.

Air testing each head should reveal an o-ring problem.

I have seen injectors that failed sooner and some that failed later than that. My best guess is 250k is the average with over 400k at the top end. I would not be surprised if injector wear is a contributor, but if pump testing is ‘free’, I might take advantage of that.

I seldom advise changing injector o-rings. The likelihood of this failure mode does not justify doing this as PM and the probability it won’t solve a poor running condition is HIGH. If it was my truck or a customer I would advise replacing the injectors if the pump and IPR test good.

 

Thanks Jason! My expectation is that I'll pay Terminator for a rebuild, which seems fair for a 10 year old pump, and I'll rebuild the IPR while it's out. The more immediate problem is I'm out of time, so doing this work is going to have to wait 'till June, which I assume won't hurt anything. We are taking a different route home from our Moab trip, so I'll avoid the two hard climbs (eastbound Vail Pass, and the climb from Silverthorne to the tunnel, for those familiar with CO). If I have to replace the injectors, I'd love to go with 160/0's or 30's, but that get's me into the whole "who to tune" mess I'd rather avoid.

I'll update this thread as things change.

Thanks all!!

Mark