@BWST and I are building/designing a newer, updated and easier to use PID Charting Tool to replace the current one when working with FORScan or FORScan Lite. It has roots based in the current PID Charting Tool as seen in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder, but is newer, more advanced, easier and faster to use!

As a SNCO and in a command position, I would always ask for thoughts and considerations for a mission course of action (COA) from subordinates, peers and superiors alike when time or plan deviation permitted. This is where BWST and I are at now... We have laid out a COA, but we don't know everything, so we are looking for some comments, opinions, thoughts or suggestions from you the FTE. We thank you in advance for any comments, opinions or suggestions you have to offer.

That said, we would like some suggestions on "default and/or common" PID's that people ask for. People in need of help or just educating themselves typically ask for certain PID's, and we have addressed them those to the best of our ability. There will be a total of 16 PID's that will automatically graph and chart themselves into the PID Charting Tool. No need to select data, right click and choose data from another tab, etc...

Below are the 16 PID's we have selected thus far.

Chart 1: has ICP, RPM (0 to 5000 scale) IPR, VSS (0 to 100 scale)

• ICP = Injector Control Pressure
• RPM = Revolutions Per Minute
• IPR = Injector Pressure Regulator
• VSS = Vehicle Speed Sensor (MPH)

Chart 2: has FUELPW (0 to 10 scale), EBP_A, MAP and MFDES ( 0 to 50 scale)

• FUELPW = Fuel Injector Pulse Width
• EBP = Exhaust Back Pressure
• MAP = Manifold Air Pressure
• MFDES = Mass Fuel Desired

Chart 3: has EOT, IAT, MAT (0 to 250 scale), and MGP (0 to 50 scale)

• EOT = Engine Oil Temperature
• IAT = Intake Air Temperature
• MAT = Manifold Air Temperature
• MGP = Manifold Gauge Pressure (Boost)

Chart 4: has ECT, TFT, VPWR (0 to 250 scale) and TC_SLIPACT (0 to 1000 scale)

• ECT = Engine Coolant Temperature
• TFT = Transmission Fluid Temperature
• VPWR = Vehicle Power (battery voltage)
• TC_SLIPACT = Torque Converter Slip

If you would like to see different PID's or feel we have left out an important PID, please let us know via PM or post here. We are open to discuss any/all suggestions or concerns.

We have purposely left out PID's such as PERDEL's and 4R100 gear because they are best viewed with a screenshot or by glance. BWST has limited the tool to 16 lines/graphs because when the tool goes past that, the file size is large and the computing power from the device is increased.

Thanks for reading this post and thank you for your participation in an effort to make charting PID's easy and helpful!

 

I am of no help here, but will probably use it sometime. Thanks!

 

It could be hard. But maybe for chart 2 add in the ratio between EBP and MAP. That could make it easier to understand what are good and bad levels.

 

Shooting from the hip here but...

RPM scale at 5000 is ok but you'll see better definition of all the other PIDs if scale upper limit set at 3500.

FIPW maxes out at 6ms IIRC so keep the PID reading milliseconds so numbers are apples to apples comparable to OE FORScan and Torque Pro PIDs.

Ditto rationale to keep boost at psi, not a 0-50 scale. Unless 0-50 is PSI?

ECT is not measured on AT trucks, which is most of them. Just chart EOT PID, let the dash monitor coolant temps.

VPWR should read in volts, again for apples to apples comparison.

Also much thanks for seeking input from a wider audience! This is a key attribute of good leaders IMHO, harvest the knowledge base.

 

{cracking knuckles}

SCALE

• The fewer scales the better. It's one thing to see a bunch of curves, but the perspective is distorted when the scales are all over the place. Here are a few thoughts:
  • 0-3500 can cover FIPW microseconds as well as RPM and ICP. The FIPW can go over that, but only during cranking or running hard with a hot tune. Anything over 3,000 microseconds doesn't really matter - if the ICP dips and IPR climbs, you already have the info you need. The data doesn't disappear, the graph just might clip.
  • Using multipliers of a number can help avoid confusion. 0-35 is good for boost, MAP/EBP delta, and voltage, where 0-350 is good for EOT and TFT.
  • When you can't avoid staying with the same multiplier, at least keep the base numbers minimal - like 35 and 10. 0-100 for MPH, EBP PSI (absolute) - and 0-1000 for TC slip
  • Air temps are tricky if you really want to know them. I don't know how far negative the sensor goes - and making a scale for that can be real confusing. I've never known the AIT to be of use on our era of truck - so maybe omitting these or leaving a scale of 0-100 will suffice. Below zero? Freaking cold. Above 100? freaking hot. Good enough?

PIDs

• 16 is a lot of data to record, our truck communication is 42K baud. You can run into limits with the truck, the OBDII adapter, the recording device, or the recording app. My experience has shown me that 11 PIDs is the sweet spot in my situation. Lets push that a bit and say 12 is max. Now we have a dilemma.
  • What 11 or 12 PIDs are key for the situation at hand?
  • If we have different PIDs in different logs, what does that do to the simplicity of the automatic graphing?
  • Once we have the format of the graphing locked down, how do we get the word out to the user on how to log the data?
  • Will this work on AE, TP, FORScan, and Infinity data, or are we just making a FORScan "kit". If it's the latter, it does make it easier because of the consistent header names and data format.

GRAPHS

• Whether it's 11, 12, or 16 PIDs, it's real easy to get those lines all mixed up in one's head.
  • Color helps a lot (obviously), but not everybody can recognize 3 shades of each color - and some people are color blind. Temporarily converting the graph to greyscale can help to set line patterns, luminance, and densities for the more visually challenged. I'm not suggesting make it all grey, I'm offering up ideas to make each line more distinctive in more than one dimension.
  • Another issue is consistency from one graph to the next. One graph might have a dark red solid line for ICP, and the next will have a light blue dashed line for ICP. If you take your 16 PIDs and have hard-set line parameters for each, that will remove a lot of the interpretation tangle while comparing graphs.
  • Having a label along the line in a graph can't hurt if not overdone. Hell... make the lines tiny streams of the label - if it would work.

FORMULAS

• Without getting into advanced trigonometry, you could incorporate a few formulas.
  • Subtract MAP from EBP to get your turbo delta. Tuned and modified trucks have an issue with this because they frequently have boost foolers. You can still get viable data up to a point.
  • Do a gear ratio graph. This might sound silly at first, but with all the tire sizes and inaccurate speedos because of that, it could prove to be useful.
  • Take the ICP and divide it by the IPR (ICP DC). I promise - this will be an eyebrow raiser when comparing data with other trucks.

Much of the above is meant to be inspiration to think out of the box. I never had a box to think in, but maybe I should have....

 

I too am looking forward to it! I use the older version, but completely understand it can be cumbersome for others to navigate. I worked in IT for the last 8 years of my military career and can find my way through various hardware and software when required. Granted, the systems and programs I was accustomed to are not available to the public.

This could be a useful addition... I will not ask BWST to take this on though and I will probably create a "key" or "recommended values" chart. I would be inclined to include these in the instructions though as that would be much easier to make them visually appealing to the viewer format rather than in the Excel document that the PID Charting Tool is created in.

Thanks for the idea!

Shooting from the hip is OK, just don't shoot the full beer cans stacked up in the corner!

Each graph is limited to two scales per graph. So, each graph must either be specific to one or multiple PID's when being charted. This works out great in some cases (IAT & MAT) and not so great in other cases (FUELPW & RPM). Since RPM and ICP are grouped together to share the same scale, I think that lowering the scale from 5000 to 3500 or 4000 even could be a useful change. I will have to refer back to @BWST for these changes as he is the mad scientist behind the curtain. He is doing this stuff in his spare time with no compensation for the greater good of the FTE.

As I understand the different PID Charting Tools for TP and FSL, there are small changes that need to be made in hidden tabs when the calculations to make a nice, visually appealing line graph that is produced for the user to view. The time sequence that TP uses is different than what AE or FSL uses, so at the very basic level of using the PID Charting Tool, they should be different. We have established that the older PID Charting Tool works with TP very well, but is a bit more cumbersome to use. We are gearing toward having a TP tool and a FSL tool and naming them appropriately. Maybe there will be some changes made to the TP tool in the future after the FSL tool is completed, but at this time the focus in on the FSL tool as the data log is much more precise.

Understood that FUELPW maxes out at 6ms, thanks for the information though. I suspect that BWST has limited the scales to multiples of 10 because it is easier for the viewer to read that when being graphed. If we limited the FUELPW to 5, it might not encompass the full data log being presented to them when running aggressive tuning that pushes the FUELPW near 5. I do this, I run this sort of tuning and I used the PID Charting Tool a few weeks ago when I brought my findings to the FTE for criticism and dissection.

It is funny you mention MGP (boost) as a scale to change... I actually suggested to BWST that maybe it would be better to lower the MGP scale to 30 seeing as the PCM will not see anything over 25 with a boost fooler or on a stock tune. I know that EBP is capable of seeing 55 PSI (?) maximum, but don't know if MGP is capable of going past 25 or so. I only just started monitoring it with my "aggressive" tuning data log and my SXE usually sticks around 20 PSI boost, even when climbing a hill. This could use some more discussion and contemplation and I thank you for bringing it to light.

ECT was a "free" PID to throw in there, a placeholder if you will. Just like TFT, TC_SLIPACT is not monitored in the ZF6 trucks. Even then, only some of the ZF6 trucks have a PID for ECT. ECT was included simply because we felt that leaving the last spot blank was not the right call and the ECT graph line would not populate if it was not included in the data log session from the user. This is why we are here and now to see if you guys and gals would like to see another PID than ECT or VPWR. Your suggestions are appreciated and encouraged!

VPWR does in fact read in volts, it just shares the same scale as ECT and TFT, for now. I just opened version 4 of the graph and the scale reads "RPM DEG V". So, the RPM scale is for the TC_SLIPACT and the DEG is for ECT and TFT and the V is for VPWR. They simply share the same scale regarding the value, but different identifier at the top of the scale.

Thank you for the compliment toward BWST and I, it is appreciated. He is doing most of the hard work, I am simply picking it apart and helping to refine it with my own ideas and suggestions. As you saw, we are on version 4 now and to the point where we feel we could use some outside help. Hence the creation of this thread.

I will be in charge of instructions and making a new updated video for FTE'rs to follow, if they so desire.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts and ideas, keep them coming if you have them!

 

Just below this comment is a small snip of the top chart with ICP, RPM, IPR and VSS. I feel I addressed the drop from the scale value of 5000 to 3500 or 4000 earlier and will have to refer back to BWST about changing it to a lower value, as indicated above.


As you can see, there is little to no distortion between the lines and this is at 70% zoom on a 15" laptop. Each line has a value assigned to it at each pixel, not each vertical line in the graph, each red or green dot. By putting your mouse on the line, the value is presented to you in a dialogue box. For example, that first spike in the red line where it is about 2250. If I highlight over that peak, the dialogue box reads "RPM value: 2173. In my opinion, this aids in clearing the distortion. Although, I completely agree and feel that 4 lines are the maximum per graph. Even then, if someone wants, they can simply remove a line like VSS by clicking the name in the top right of the Charting Tool and hitting delete. Then, their graph only has 3 lines to look at, further clearing the distortion. All of this will come out when the PID Charting Tool is ready for public release. Right now, we have passed the Alpha stage and are in public Beta stage...

OK, so BWST and I discussed FUELPW and we felt for the general populace that leaving FUELPW at the single digit or decimal digit value was better. Most times, we on the FTE refer to FUEL in X.X or ms value. We decided against changing it to microseconds and having it ride on the same scale as ICP because most times it is referred to differently. Again, this is not a problem for some, but would add to the confusion of solving their issue for others. Also, the line value is easily identifiable by hovering over the line or by zooming in, both of which are very simple.

I had not considered negative temperatures and in my opinion this is a non-issue. If the IAT reads 0, because the temperature is below 0, I think those of us looking at the graph will just assume it is cold. IAT and MAT were included because they are sometimes discussed on the relation between the two when discussing intakes, IC's, filters, turbos, etc. In addition, they were another set of free PID's to include in there. Again, we are trying to capture the "more common" PID's past ICP, IPR and FUELPW, which are the most common.

BWST built a PID Charting Tool where people can pick and choose what they want to view, further reducing the distortion, but we feel they find it cumbersome to use. I think it is a very simple process, but I was in tactical communications and IT for 8 years of my military career and I find the older version very useful. I do find the newer version that is being developed now more useful since it has "defaults" instead of "pick and choose", but they are both good at what they do and I commend him for his efforts.

In our opinion, IAT and MAT are worthy to have a spot in the Charting Tool if the user took the time to data log them. If not, then they will be left off and your suggestion will be in full effect.

16 is a lot of data, but NOT required. Also, FS and FSL handle 16 columns of data very easily. I was data logging a many PID's when I was building my "aggressive tuning thread" and I had zero problems with it, even on a tablet. I think TP starts to have problems after a certain amount of PID's, or maybe that is AE? Again though, someone can log a single PID if they choose, and the rest of the graph will remain blank. These are "default" and "automatically populated" PID's because the "select data" PID's in the other PID Charting Tool was too cumbersome for most users.

If you have different PID's in different logs... Easy... Just take your additional PID's and paste them into the "log data" tab in the PID Charting Tool and they will populate. So, you could run 16 different logging sessions with only one PID logged at a time if you like. Then, take those 16 logs and past each column into "log data" tab and they would be graphed based on their default name. Although, your timeline would be different because they were logged at different times.

To simplify this, let's say you wanted to see the relationship between the ambient air temperature by the filter (IAT) and the air temperature going into the manifold (MAT) after going through the IC. Simply log IAT and MAT and graph those. The 16 is a maximum, not a requirement.

As for how to log the data... Well, there is documentation in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder taken directly from the FORScan site. The documentation includes Fruit, Android and Windows instructions. Also, I can include how to change the output to a .csv file in the instructions just as I did for the original PID Charting Tool. Also, I will put that process in the video. In addition, if the user still cannot get the hang of it, we (the FTE) can assist them in learning the process or graphing it for them if they are simply here on a short maintenance stop instead of a staycation like some of us.

Tugly, you have been gone a while playing the the stars my friend... There is another PID Charting Tool already available for TP and AE and any other data logger that is capable of spitting out a .csv file or a file that can be converted into a .csv file by Excel or Open Office. You must remember when I was working with you and Open Office a year or so ago? Anyway, FORScan is different because it samples the data at a much faster rate and when we were using the existing PID Charting Tool with FORScan data logs, it became distorted because the graph was basing it on seconds and the data log was noted based on milliseconds.

Just to make sure we are on the same sheet of music here...

This is a screenshot of the "existing" PID Charting Tool thread.



See the list of attachments consist of FORScan only, Non-FORScan only and instructions? Then a video as well? I hope this clears up that concern.

More on that later, but remember this is a voluntary project taken on by myself and BWST.

If people are getting mixed up, they can remove a line by going to a box in the top right of the spreadsheet and pushing delete. Done! This is the beauty of a "default PID" system.

Color blindness is an issue I had not considered and I am glad you brought this up. Although, if someone hovers their mouse over a trace, they can read in the dialogue box what it is and what the value is, so I don't think this is a major issue. If so, they can convert it to grey and move on. Or, they can remove all other PID's from the graph to view only what they want to see.

Because I have mentioned several times now, below is a snip of the default PID's and the chart labels. These are in addition to what shows up in a dialogue box and next to the chart along the vertical axis and value.



The box in the top right is where you can remove any PID you like to remove it from the graphs below. Easy peasy... The chart identifiers to the left will change their nomenclatures as PID's are removed from teh box on the right. Easy peasy... BWST has done a great deal of work making this as simple as possible and I am very happy and appreciative with what he has done for this community, on a volunteer basis. He says he enjoys helping out, but he must get tired of me saying "what about this, or this..."

The lines are the same 4 colors and are seen in the chart boxes above. The lines will disappear as they are removed from the default PID box. If they are re-added later, then the same color they originally had will show up to identify them. They are default PID's based on line color, value and placement in the tool.

Labels, done! The blue line on the left of the graph is a frozen pane, so as the user scrolls to the right to view their graph, the labels and values will follow. Easy peasy!



We don't want to make it too complicated for the basic user, hence the default PID's. Formulas and computations are great, but there is a point where we surpass what 95% of the users are looking for and playing toward the 5%. That is not what we are attempting to do. Maybe once this tool is done, we can work on a more advanced version with more advanced formulas and computations. For now though, these ideas should be archived for use on a later date.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

 

Thank you guys for this stuff. As a novice user it is a bit overwhelming at first glance. I am going to give it a shot this weekend and see what I come up with.

 

You sir are a prime example of the intended target! Someone that is either interested in learning about what happens behind closed doors and within the PCM. Or, someone that is willing to dive into the details of why your truck is doing this or that, be it a good thing or bad thing.

The new PID Charting Tool will be much easier to use and view data logged in a visually appealing graph. Just copy from the data log and paste into the PID Charting Tool and you are good to go!

 

I plan on willing my 7.3 Excursion to my daughter when Im gone so I want it to last forever. After all the tinkering with it Im happy with how Piglet performs. The last hand calculated tank was Jackson, WY to Aurora, CO - 555 GPS miles on 28.895 gallons = 19.20 MPG not bad for a 7.3 on big AT tires roof rack and awning. That put cruising range over 800 miles. That'll Do Pig...That'll DO!

 

BWST and I have been trading emails back and forth and he has been working very diligently in his spare time in order to perfect the PID Charting Tool.

He has adjusted some of the scales in order to bring them more into line with what the truck is outputting regarding data logs.

We have discussed the color blindness issue and he is going to look into changing some of the traces to a different pattern. For example, the red line would become a red line of dots. The green line would become a green dotted line. He has been swamped at work lately and I commended him for his tireless efforts to help the FTE community and 7.3L owners around the world.

More to follow!

 

Thanks for the feedback on what you need in this tool. Just about done with this version. I use excel for work, so spending time on this is a win win for learning what the tool can and cannot do.

If you want, you can send me your csv logs, or post them to the forum anytime for graphing as well - especially while we are developing this thing. It's good practice, it helps to make the tool better, and maybe we get your truck issues to the forum for diagnosis sooner.

 

We are getting close!

If ANYONE has any comments, thoughts, suggestions or ideas, please post them now! Once the final ideas/revisions have been worked out soon I will be creating a video and instructions to post here. This PID Charting Tool will be so much easier to use than the other one and really just involves copying and pasting from and to the proper areas. That is it, all done!

This is where we are at now. This is only the top two charts in a four chart view.

 

Just wanted to say thanks for the effort here.
Smart organized information is always a great tool to use when troubleshooting issues. You guys are all over it.

All of the charting stuff is over my head. I see the usefulness but have not taken the time/effort to log data and set down and examine it. Hope to get to do this someday soon maybe.

The one thing that I will say about the PID’s we use to look at various numbers put out by the pcm is the scale is sometimes an issue. Example: Someone will post “My oil temp is reading 99. Shouldn’t it be higher” if you do the math 99 Celsius = 210 Fahrenheit. Normal reading but the scale is wrong. The person picked a Celsius pid or the monitor they were using is set the metric or something like that. May not be an issue with what you guys are doing but I have seen this more than a few times here on FTE.

I look forward to your finished product. Thanks!

 

Thanks for this comment, slowsure. I set up my Forscan EOT PID to Celsius and captured a short log to check this out. Our charting tool will not automatically graph a Celsius PID, since it's looking specifically for one of these 16 PIDs listed in the 4 chart boxes on the left. It will show up in the list of PIDs captured in the large box to the right. So that will be one way to check if the expected PIDs, including their units, are correctly selected. In this case, I have logged 15 PIDs, including Engine Oil Temp in Celcius units. Since I don't have a 16th PID, it shows up as a zero.



Note the dashed green EOT PID is not on the chart here.

If you want to go ahead and graph the Celsius version, just put the name of the PID in the chart box you want it in. In this case, I just changed "F" to "C" in the 3rd chart box. The PID now shows up in the 3rd chart.